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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#172926: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:10:41 AM

[up][up][up]Most of the people in charge of things in this administration — including our POS POTUS — are people I would not hire to run an IHOP, let alone the USA.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:11:28 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#172927: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:11:02 AM

Draining the swamp, ladies and gentletropers.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#172928: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:12:46 AM

[up] At this point I think a Cabinet of actual swamp creatures would be an improvement.

Hell, Caligula's horse Incitatus would be a better POTUS come to think of it.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:13:34 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#172929: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:12:46 AM

@172,864: Huh? What'd Tulsi Gabbard do wrong?

@172,870: Everyone keeps saying the info was manipulated, but I haven't seen anyone provide evidence of it.

I'm still a bit confused on the emails issue - weren't the leaked DNC emails literally just "hey, we could point out that Sanders might be an atheist?" which they ended up not doing anyway?

No, that was ONE of the things in the e-mails, but it wasn't the worst or only thing (see post 172,882)

Yeah, we know that hacks targeted both the DNC and RNC, but Wikileaks only released the DNC ones.

Do we know the hacks on both parties came from the same place, or that the hacks targeting the RNC were successful at breaching their security system? If so, I too think it was wrong for the hackers to only release the DNC's dirty laundry and not the RNC's, but I'm still glad that SOMEONE'S corruption was exposed.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:20:01 AM by SeriesOfNumbers

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#172930: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:13:00 AM

Re Justice Democrats: I applaud their efforts and what they stand for, but I disagree with some parts of their platform.

That's basically my opinion on the Social Democrats (who will undoubtedly be called "Socialist Democrats" by opponents on all sides); they have some things I agree with, and I know they're coming from a good place, but I disagree with a lot of their platform.

EDIT: Also, these Democrats are almost certainly going to be the Herbal Tea Party of the Democrats.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:16:32 AM by DingoWalley1

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172932: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:21:26 AM

[up][up] The neoliberal center is collapsing around the world along with the center's economic paradigm. They're going to be replaced one way or another, and its up to them whether they're being replaced at the hands of a relatively moderate (at least in the United States) left wing or the extreme right that Trump represents.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:23:07 AM by CaptainCapsase

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#172933: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:21:36 AM

Justice Democrats being run by Cenk doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

I need Democrats who live in objective reality, not ideological left wing fantasy nonsense.

New Survey coming this weekend!
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#172934: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:21:58 AM

About "Justice Democrats": I don't see what's so different from the normal democratic platform, but with non-interventionism. So I don't see where's the difference with usual Democrats, is it that they are Progressives?

Also, about last paragraph:

.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#172935: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:23:51 AM

There are a number of things on that platform that I think seem nice but actually either don't really add up or aren't actually all that great.

Also, I think I might be a neoliberal

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#172936: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:23:54 AM

[up][up] They're basically the ancient mystical society of "No Hillaries!"

edited 7th Feb '17 10:24:05 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#172937: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:24:47 AM

[up][up] The fact that you're what, 16, 17? And you already can see through the nonsense of the platform warms my heart.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172938: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:25:03 AM

[up][up] It's either the "far" left or Trump's neopopulism. In places like the United States where the far left end of the Overtown Window is really quite moderate in the grand scheme of things, I think the choice should be obvious.

[up] The center is incapable of holding their ground in the current political climate, that much has been made clear by the trends of the last year; they're going to become the junior partner one way or another to the populist right or the populist left, and in the case of the United States, the "far" left is really quite moderate in the grand scheme of things. You can either repeat the mistakes of Weimar Germany and ally yourself with right wing extremists to crush the left, or make concessions to them as was done in the case of the New Deal era in America.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:30:04 AM by CaptainCapsase

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#172940: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:31:18 AM

And here's a very good rebuttal to the "tampering gave us more information" argument.

I only see claims there with no evidence to back them up. It even brought up the "pizzagate" story which wasn't part of the wikileaks e-mails.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#172941: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:33:45 AM

I am definitely no neo-liberal. Neo-liberalism is one of the reasons we're in this situation in the first place. It's a full on Republican platform.

Jimmy Carter and Reagan are the two presidents that shifted the parties away from social democracy.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

Main points of neo-liberalism:

1.THE RULE OF THE MARKET. Liberating "free" enterprise or private enterprise from any bonds imposed by the government (the state) no matter how much social damage this causes. Greater openness to international trade and investment, as in NAFTA. Reduce wages by de-unionizing workers and eliminating workers' rights that had been won over many years of struggle. No more price controls. All in all, total freedom of movement for capital, goods and services. To convince us this is good for us, they say "an unregulated market is the best way to increase economic growth, which will ultimately benefit everyone." It's like Reagan's "supply-side" and "trickle-down" economics — but somehow the wealth didn't trickle down very much.

2.CUTTING PUBLIC EXPENDITURE FOR SOCIAL SERVICES like education and health care. REDUCING THE SAFETY-NET FOR THE POOR, and even maintenance of roads, bridges, water supply — again in the name of reducing government's role. Of course, they don't oppose government subsidies and tax benefits for business.

3.DEREGULATION. Reduce government regulation of everything that could diminsh profits, including protecting the environmentand safety on the job.

4.PRIVATIZATION. Sell state-owned enterprises, goods and services to private investors. This includes banks, key industries, railroads, toll highways, electricity, schools, hospitals and even fresh water. Although usually done in the name of greater efficiency, which is often needed, privatization has mainly had the effect of concentrating wealth even more in a few hands and making the public pay even more for its needs.

5.ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF "THE PUBLIC GOOD" or "COMMUNITY" and replacing it with "individual responsibility." Pressuring the poorest people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care, education and social security all by themselves — then blaming them, if they fail, as "lazy."

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#172942: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:35:10 AM

By those bullet points the vast majority of the Democrats aren't neoliberal at all.

lmao.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172943: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:37:15 AM

[up][up] Neoliberaism was a response to the breakdown the Kenysian economic paradigm in the 1970s, which was something that was predicted many years in advance by a critic of Keynes; tying the economy to full employment rather than to inflation requires unsustainable wage growth, and shifts the balance of power strongly in favor of debtors and labor unions over creditors and employers. The neoliberal program has now run into essentially the exact opposite problem; creditors and employers are king, the economy is merely "okay" even with massive amounts of money being pumped into the economy via historically low Federal Reserve interest rates, and creditor-debtor standoffs are happening all over the place.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:39:37 AM by CaptainCapsase

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#172944: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:37:22 AM

@Tactical: Thanks for that.

Anyway, if you're all interested, here are my specific objections:

Campaign Finance Reform: I understand the intentions, but I think banning all donations by private individuals or organizations is not a good idea, as it means funding is largely based on who has the most money to begin with, which is directly counterproductive of the idea's goal. Furthermore, I personally believe it should be within people's and organization's rights to donate, as long as a hard cap is placed on how much can be donated, and possibly a ban on for-profit corporations doing so, maybe, but I'm less sure about that.

Non-Interventionism: As much as we hate it, a lot of the world is protected by the US Military, particularly in Europe through NATO and in East Asia. If a solution could be found to wind back the involvement while keeping stability and American power I'd be for it, but just stopping seems like a bad idea to me.

Trade Deals: As I understand it, free trade actually largely helps the American economy-protectionism is going to be counterproductive, as we could see with Trump.

The rest of the agenda is stuff I'd agree with on paper, but I see it and think, "OK, but how are you going to actually do all that?"

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#172945: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:37:36 AM

[up][up][up] Including HRC. Only that first bullet point would really apply to her, given her initial support for TPP. Which she eventually retracted on the grounds of it not living up to her "gold standard".

edited 7th Feb '17 10:38:50 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#172946: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:38:30 AM

I mean, I think corporations shouldn't be people, and shouldn't be allowed to donate.

danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#172947: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:40:19 AM

Does it mean private donations as in donations from individuals or anonymous donations? Because I'm down with individual donations, but anonymous donations are one of the biggest factors of corruption.

And also, no isolationism. We're long past the point where that's a viable option. Globalism is coming, and we can either accept and adapt, or we can shut ourselves away and be left in the dust.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:41:45 AM by danime91

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#172948: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:41:22 AM

@Tactical From my understanding, Reaganomics is American neo-liberalism. Democrats aren't as neo-liberal as the Republicans but they've defined made moves in those directions in the 80's, 90's and 00's.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#172949: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:42:20 AM

From the Justice Democrats platform:

End constitutional overreaches by the government. Ban the NSA from bulk data collecting and warrant-less spying. Shut down Guantanamo Bay and ban all extrajudicial prisons. Prosecute those who carried out torture in violation of the Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Tribunals, International and US law. Return and support due process and habeas corpus. Pardon and support the rights of whistle-blowers such as Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning.

This shit right here is why I can't take them seriously.

Any freshman law student could tell you that these charges would be LAUGHED out of court in the pursuing of charges let alone the mountain to climb to get a conviction would be higher than the Olympus Mons.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172950: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:42:20 AM

@Tactical: Bill Clinton was a self-described neoliberal, and nobody in the party is really keen on rolling back the key reforms made in the Carter-Reagan-Bush-Clinton period that put the current neoliberal paradigm in place.

[up] America only manages to avoid having each and every one of its presidents and a huge number of public officials tried for war crimes by virtue of Might Makes Right. If the decline of American power continues, we're inevitably going to be held accountable by our peers, and we might as well get used to that, or at least take steps in that direction.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:44:16 AM by CaptainCapsase


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