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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172901: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:34:37 AM

@M84: If she's willing to vote with them I'll take it. Where our agendas align, there's no reason not to work with people we might not otherwise see eye to eye with. Up to an including the Trump administration if they produce an acceptable infrastructure bill.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#172902: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:35:40 AM

[up] That's a pretty big "if".

Disgusted, but not surprised
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#172903: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:35:43 AM

Yeah, they "tampered with" us by informing us. Giving us more information. How dare they? Don't they know info should be withheld from voters to trick us into voting a certain way for the greater good?

Greater good my ass, tampered information and tendentious reporting isn't giving more information.

Inter arma enim silent leges
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#172904: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:38:27 AM

"Just fuck my education up, fam!"

New Survey coming this weekend!
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#172905: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:40:45 AM

The GOP wants to burn government to the ground, and rule the ashes. Today's confirmation is just icing on the cake for anyone who has known that for years.

[down]He's getting in no doubt. GOP won't stop one of their own.

@Justice Democrats, they seemed okay (albeit light on policy) until the inevitable isolationism came up.

edited 7th Feb '17 9:42:52 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#172906: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:41:52 AM

And if Sessions becomes Attorney General, the Legion of Doom will be complete. Then the looting will begin.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#172907: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:45:10 AM

I'm still a bit confused on the emails issue - weren't the leaked DNC emails literally just "hey, we could point out that Sanders might be an atheist?" which they ended up not doing anyway? And a lot of personal information about DNC members which could have been used in identity theft?

I highly doubt the RNC wasn't having similar conversations about Trump in private, and making people vulnerable to criminals is absolutely despicable.note 

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#172908: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:47:47 AM

Yeah, we know that hacks targeted both the DNC and RNC, but Wikileaks only released the DNC ones.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#172909: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:50:40 AM

We've been over this again and again, Wikileaks is 1) an asset of the Kremlin, 2) political extremists (and not just of the freedom of information kind), 3) release info without regard to the amount of damage it does to individuals and societies (intentionally trying to get fascists put into power for whatever reason).

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172910: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:52:52 AM

@Rational: The unipolar world order that the United States has maintained over the past few decades is very clearly untenable; the sun is setting on the Pax Americana (and on western dominance in general) much like it set on the British Empire after World War 2, and the sooner policymakers recognize that, the better the odds are of avoiding another world war in resulting power vacuum.

edited 7th Feb '17 9:54:00 AM by CaptainCapsase

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#172911: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:53:07 AM

New Jersey eliminated cash bail at the beginning of the year.

    article 
Jamie Contrano squirmed at the defendant’s table inside the Passaic County Court House here. She had been charged with possessing four envelopes of heroin, and, having failed to show up for more than a dozen court appearances over the years, she was a perfect candidate for a high bail — and a lengthy jail stay.

But under an overhaul of New Jersey’s bail system, which went into effect Jan. 1, judges are now considering defendants’ flight risk and threat to public safety in deciding whether to detain them while they await trial. Otherwise, they are to be released, usually with certain conditions.

Judge Ernest M. Caposela, who oversees Passaic County, noted that Ms. Contrano, 39, had a job at a carwash and was seeing a doctor specializing in addiction. He decided to let her out. “Will she fall off the wagon?” Judge Caposela said in an interview after the hearing. “She might. But sitting in jail is only going to hurt her. She has a disease, so is that a person I want to keep in jail for five to six weeks?”

The hearing illustrated the sharply altered legal landscape after voters in 2014 supported amending New Jersey’s Constitution to nearly eliminate cash bail, a move that has placed the state in the forefront of a national movement aimed at changing a bail system that critics say discriminates against poor defendants, many of whom are blacks and Latinos. Defendants languishing in jail, unable to come up with modest bails for low-level offenses, often have their lives upended, losing jobs or having children taken away from them.

New Jersey’s changes, which were backed by Gov. Chris Christie, closely mirror those adopted by the federal judicial system and the District of Columbia, which have long shunned monetary bail in criminal proceedings. While a handful of other states like Kentucky and Colorado have pursued bail changes, New Jersey stands apart as having the most far-reaching overhaul.

Bail is still an option, but the reality is that judges have nearly done away with it. In the 3,382 cases statewide that were processed in the first four weeks of January, judges set bail only three times. An additional 283 defendants were held without bail because they were accused of a serious crime or were a significant flight risk, or both.

“A year ago, a defendant who appeared in court would have been forced to post bail in a majority of cases,” said the state’s chief justice, Stuart Rabner. “And one in eight inmates were being held because they couldn’t post bail of up to $2,500.” That is the typical amount for a minor offense, and bail bond agents would usually seek 10 percent, or $250 in cash. Some defendants cannot afford even that.

The new approach, perhaps not surprisingly, has provoked protest from the bail bond industry, which says the system is allowing dangerous criminals out on the streets. “The system is just overloaded,” said Richard Blender, a lawyer in New Jersey who represents several bail bond agents. “They can’t process these defendants fast enough. They are just pushing people out the door. You’re talking about child pornography, carjacking and aggravated sexual assault.”

But experts argue that a system relying on bail does not guarantee public safety. “There is nothing that says you can’t be a serial killer and a millionaire,” said Joseph E. Krakora, the state’s public defender.

E. Rely Vilcica, an assistant professor of criminal justice at Temple University, pointed out that drug dealers often had the means to post high bails and continued plying their trade. “Basically people who have money can buy their freedom,” Professor Vilcica said. “So cash bail doesn’t address the danger.”

Though not having to hold defendants in jails reduces spending, judicial officials said that cost savings did not motivate the changes to the system. (In some jurisdictions, like a county in North Carolina, jails have closed as pretrial detentions plummet.) Instead, they said, the overhaul was driven by a desire to address one of the ways in which the nation’s criminal justice system tends to fall hardest on poor and minority defendants.

A study by the Drug Policy Alliance in New Jersey, released in 2013, found that 39 percent of inmates were eligible to be released on bail, but that many could not meet amounts as low as $2,500.

“Large numbers of people were in our jails for weeks or months for low-level offenses,” said Roseanne Scotti, the New Jersey state director of the Drug Policy Alliance, a nonprofit advocacy group. “They are innocent until proven guilty, but their whole lives are derailed. While they are in there, they lose homes and jobs and contact with their families. But if you have money, you can walk.”

The new system assigns defendants scores of one to six, with one being the least risky. They receive a risk assessment within 48 hours of their arrests, though some judges, like Mr. Caposela, are striving to complete assessments within 24 hours.

Ms. Contrano, who was charged with heroin possession, had the worst score, both because of her 17 failures to appear in previous court cases and because of an outstanding assault charge. “I made a bad judgment call,” she said to the judge, referring to her recent arrest. “I’m sorry.”

Judge Caposela said the computer-generated scores did not tell the whole story and were a guide, not a directive. He ordered her to stay out of Paterson, which he said had the “purest and cheapest” heroin on the East Coast; to check in with the court officials; and to report for drug testing. “If I just let the computer make this call, she’s out of luck,” he said after Ms. Contrano’s detention hearing. “There’s a lot of careful consideration and contemplation.”

But the hundreds of bail bond agents in New Jersey see the new system differently. As their industry faces collapse, they are rallying the public to bring back cash bail, posting examples of what they call the release of dangerous defendants to a Facebook page, “NJ Bail Reform — Why New Jersey is Less Safe at the Taxpayers Expense.”

They have highlighted cases like burglaries and sexual assaults. In one, a 20-year-old sex offender in Ocean County, Christopher Wilson, was charged with attempted sexual assault after he offered a gaming console to a 12-year-old girl in exchange for sex. He was placed under house arrest with an electronic monitoring bracelet pending trial. The local police chief, Richard J. Buzby Jr., then issued an emotional warning to parents, saying he “could not sleep tonight” if he remained silent.

Kirk Shaw, whose grandfather started Shaw Bail Bonds Agency in Hackensack in 1969, said the system had driven a stake through a four-generation business that now included his son. “We’re basically out of business,” he said. “We’re expected to monitor the defendants we do have out on bail, but we have no money coming in. This is all I’ve done since I was 18.”

Judicial officials reject the idea that dangerous criminals are flooding communities. “There is no system that eliminates all risk,” Chief Justice Rabner said. “Last year, there was a risk that anyone released on bail could go out and commit a serious crime pending trial. What we are attempting to do is evaluate the level of risk with objective measures.”

Still, he acknowledged: “There will be a crisis one day, where a single defendant will violate conditions and does something that grabs the public’s attention. But that’s no different than before.”

Daniel Palazzo, a public defender in Passaic County and the lawyer for Ms. Contrano, points to recent cases as examples of how he believes the new system is more effective. A client charged with murder was detained pending trial. Under the old system, Mr. Palazzo said, the defendant, 20, who is accused in a fatal shooting in Paterson in September, could have theoretically posted a $500,000 to $1 million bail to win his release, because judges were obligated to set bail no matter the crime.

But another client charged with attempted murder was released under certain conditions. Before Jan. 1, the defendant, who is accused of a stabbing, would have faced bail of about $200,000 and most likely would have spent a year and a half in jail awaiting trial. “But there was a viable self-defense argument to be made,” Mr. Palazzo said, “because the victim had been the aggressor in the past.”

Some elected officials complain that a bail overhaul amounts to an unfunded mandate for counties, which have had to spend tens of millions of dollars on new sheriffs’ officers and prosecutorial investigators to escort defendants to court and to weigh seeking a motion to detain them.

But judicial reform advocates lauded New Jersey’s willingness to pursue a wholesale revision, rather than take baby steps. “It certainly is ambitious to take on a whole state at once,” said Cherise Fanno Burdeen, chief executive of the Pretrial Justice Institute, a nonprofit in Maryland. “We are incredibly proud of the seemingly successful arrival at a system that has moved away from money.”

During a meeting with sheriffs from across the nation, Trump offers to "destroy" the career of a Texas state Senator who wanted to make it harder for sheriffs to seize assets of drug traffickers; sheriff who complained declined to say the state Senators name.

edited 7th Feb '17 9:57:17 AM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#172912: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:57:42 AM

[up][up]Its ending, that's correct. But turning to isolationism and protectionism is not the solution. A multi-polar world in an era of climate change and nuclear weapons is going to require more cooperation than ever before. Throwing East Asia and Europe to the wolves is not going make a world war less likely, quite the opposite in fact.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#172913: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:58:59 AM

An entire generation of kids' chances at a getting a good education is in shambles now. :(

Fuck De Vos and that orange shitgoblin.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#172914: Feb 7th 2017 at 9:59:26 AM

Yeah, America retreating into itself and becoming even more of a gated community doesn't seem like the right way to go.

Edit: Concerning De Vos...since her agenda is probably going to involve a lot of budget cuts and pushes for privatization and/or charter schools, the best case scenario is that she does such a shitty job actually running the Department that she can't get most of it done.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:01:31 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#172915: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:00:37 AM

I mean, it wasn't their information to give,

I'm not sure what that means. It's info the American people had the right to know, regardless of where it came from.

and they are most certainly not people with our best interests at heart.

Doing the right thing for the wrong reason is still doing the right thing. If I were kidnapped and someone rescued me not because they cared about me but because they hated the kidnapper for personal reasons and wanted to spite him or her, I'd still be glad I was rescued. It might not reflect very well on the rescuer morally, but it wouldn't mean the rescue itself was a bad thing.

Likewise, the Russian government is awful and assuming they were behind the leak - which they probably were, but I still think it's plausible they weren't - they did for selfish reasons. Nevertheless, it was still a good thing the info was released.

Also, I mean. In your second source, it's noteworthy that the biggest sin of Democrats was not doing enough vetting on Trump's nominee before voting for him.

Even if it's the case that they voted for him because they didn't vet him enough and not because they agree with torture, that's still a mistake that's going to result in a lot of innocent people being tortured. I'd say that's a pretty big sin.

It was still, y'know, Trump's nominee.

And? Are you saying it's okay if both parties do it? I think everyone on this thread already knows the Republicans are evil. I'm just frustrated that a lot of people think that makes all the Democrats good, when the reality is that most of them are merely the lesser of two evils. There's some exceptions, but for the most part, American politics are plagued with Black-and-Gray Morality, with Democrats being the "gray" and Republicans being the "black".

So just to even the playing field, could we have a look at Trump's emails as well?

I'd be totally in favor of that.

No?

If you're asking how I'd feel about us looking at Trump's e-mails, my answer is "yes", not "no".

Well now that just doesn't seem right, does it?

No it doesn't. I wish the hackers had released both parties' dirty laundry. I still say one is better than none, though.

Violations of privacy are never okay,

When the private info is about how you tried to deceive voters, violated the First Amendment by trying to bully the media into giving you favorable coverage, called anti-corruption laws an example of prejudice against people who've lived "successful and interesting lives" (what does that imply about what Clinton would've done to anti-corruption laws if she'd gotten into office?), used Clinton Foundation charity money for Chelsea Clinton's wedding and admitted to lying about your positions among other things, that's info that shouldn't be private. There's certain things that politicians don't have the right to keep private from us because they effect other people's lives.

especially when the information stolen contains nothing wrong whatsoever.

In this case, the info stolen contained plenty of things wrong.

@172,872: I don't see any isolationism in there, just not going to war when it isn't necessary and not helping human rights violators. Am I missing something?

We've been over this again and again, Wikileaks is 1) an asset of the Kremlin, 2) political extremists (and not just of the freedom of information kind), 3) release info without regard to the amount of damage it does to individuals and societies (intentionally trying to get fascists put into power for whatever reason).

The DNC has acknowledged that the leaked e-mails were theirs. Thus, the contents of the e-mails matters regardless of the morality of the people who leaked them. If Dylan Roof or ISIS leaked accurate info about bad things Trump is doing that we don't already know about, would you argue that the leak was wrong and Trump should be allowed to get away with the newly-revealed wrongdoings because the info came from bad people?

edited 7th Feb '17 10:25:43 AM by SeriesOfNumbers

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172916: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:01:39 AM

@Rational: And that platform doesn't necessarily have a timetable in it; withdrawing from Europe over a period of ten years and making arrangements for the major European powers to secure their own collective defense by that deadline is one possibility.

edited 7th Feb '17 10:03:54 AM by CaptainCapsase

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#172917: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:02:49 AM

Oh, mr. MostDefinitlyNotATrumpSupporter is back to talk about Hillary's emails, I kind of prefer the ones who admit it and try to justify their actions.

And here's a very good rebuttal to the "tampering gave us more information" argument. In short, they chose which emails to release to make Hillary look as bad as they could do and released them out of context for that same reason (most of the anti-Bernie emails happened when he was mathematically out but hadn't dropped out and were said out of exasperation more than malice).

edited 7th Feb '17 10:03:35 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#172918: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:03:19 AM

Good about bail. Judges should still be careful about letting some people out, but some charges are just not worth the hassle of having to hold someone. There's also the argument for high bail potentially hurting the innocent, who are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

I doubt there is the budget for this, but could criminals who are a potential risk be mandated to wear an ankle bracelet instead, so their whereabouts could be monitored but money doesn't need to be spent on incarcerating them?

Oissu!
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#172919: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:05:09 AM

It was a clear attempt to make the DNC look bad in comparison to Trump. Should the public know about the wrongs committed outlined in those emails? Yes. Should it be let known to the public in a way that guarantees swinging public opinion the other way because of a lack of similar exposure on the other candidate? No, at that point it's clearly manipulation. Assange said as much that he hoped the leak would hurt the DNC.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#172920: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:05:42 AM

Both of Georgia’s U.S. senators plan to vote [today] to confirm Betsy DeVos My GA Senators, representing as always...Well, at least Purdue got paid. Kudos

Also, we're still hemorrhaging allies abroad... Call to block Trump from addressing British Parliament stirs controversy

Addressing lawmakers in the Westminster Hall is considered a special honor in Britain, one that has been bestowed upon the likes of Nelson Mandela, Pope Benedict XVI and, in 2011, President Barack Obama.

...Bercow indicated that Trump’s name would not be added to the list. He is one of three officials who would have to agree on whether a head of state could speak in Parliament.

May has come under pressure to revoke the offer [of a state visit by Trump] after the worldwide backlash triggered by Trump's controversial travel ban. In Britain, over 1.8 million people signed a petition urging the British government to rescind the offer of the state visit to avoid any “embarrassment” to the queen.


[down]Was referring to where they stood, even after knowing by experience the office was flooded with calls...

edited 7th Feb '17 10:10:03 AM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#172921: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:06:12 AM

[up] DeVos was already confirmed, with Pence casting a tie breaking vote.

danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#172922: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:07:40 AM

I stopped watching the stream after DeVos was confirmed. What's the word on Sessions? I mean, it's obvious he's in, but is he already in or do we have a few more minutes of wishful thinking?

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#172923: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:07:40 AM

So basically this administration is pretty much setting the precedent of qualifications for government don't matter, only party and personal loyalty.

New Survey coming this weekend!
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#172925: Feb 7th 2017 at 10:09:40 AM

Re Justice Democrats: I applaud their efforts and what they stand for, but I disagree with some parts of their platform.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison

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