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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#172426: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:11:48 PM

Well that's just more or less how privilege works. You are limited to only your own experience. It takes effort to understand your own experience relative to others, and understanding the validity of your own struggles while still being able to accept that other people of different groups are disadvantaged in other areas you usually aren't. Even if you were capable of understanding intellectually, most people are self-centered and care more about their own dealings than a bunch of people they don't know, and they're consistently led to believe they're living in a zero sum game instead of bridge gaps and cooperate.

Like I said earlier, at some point someone with a far-reaching pulpit is going to have to start laying down some very harsh truths.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172427: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:18:15 PM

The actual left-wing is Bernie Sander's branch of the party.

Nonsense. Sanders is an economic populist. Soically he's no more enlightened than the others and he's behind some of them. "The Confederacy" my ass.

edited 3rd Feb '17 2:18:49 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#172428: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:32:32 PM

Uh, Sanders has been calling for LGBT equality since the 80s. He's been arrested protesting with civil rights folks in college, and he pays a lot of attention to Native American issues, meeting with leaders of surviving nations and such. Socially, he's got a very progressive stance.

As for economically, he openly calls himself a Democratic Socialist. That's pretty left. For an American.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172429: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:46:17 PM

You know, the funny thing is I didn't attack Sanders. I just denied that he's notably more progressive on social issues than the likes of Clinton or Obama. Because he's not.

Uh, Sanders has been calling for LGBT equality since the 80s.

No he hasn't. Seriously, this is a claim that gets floated every time that someone challenges any of Sanders' progressive credentials, and yet it never actually gets backed up. Sanders came out in favour of gay marriage in 2006. That's his first public stance on the topic. Now that's still earlier than a lot of his contemporaries but it's not the eighties.

He's been arrested protesting with civil rights folks in college

This again. Sanders is in his seventies. University was fifty years ago for him. If this is the best his defenders can come up with when it comes to defending his civil rights' record there's a problem. I mean, if he's such a great friend to minorities surely he should have some legislative accomplishments to back up his college protests, right?

Because on the flip side of that equation we have 1) voting to ship nuclear waste to a poor Hispanic town that didn't want it, then refusing to meet with delegates from that town because "I'm running for reelection in Vermont" 2) dismissing Clinton's black supporters as the Confederacy (a line which is so insulting I'm still having trouble processing it months after the fact) and 3) repeatedly ignoring racial issues to worship at the altar of the White Working Class (TM).

he pays a lot of attention to Native American issues, meeting with leaders of surviving nations and such

And what exactly has he accomplished on that front? And I can't say I heard him talk about them during the campaign. Heard a lot about the WWC. Not much about Native Americans.

Socially, he's got a very progressive stance.

See above. See also his claim that women who don't start having sex at thirteen are more vulnerable to cancer and the essay that he wrote contending that all women secretly fantasize about gangrape. And before you inform me that "that was a long time ago" so was his marching for Civil Rights.

As for economically, he openly calls himself a Democratic Socialist. That's pretty left. For an American.

Which wasn't part of my critique. I called him an economic populist, which he is, and said socially he's not near as far ahead of his contemporaries as many would claim.

edited 3rd Feb '17 2:47:27 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#172430: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:46:20 PM

Nonsense. Sanders is an economic populist. Soically he's no more enlightened than the others and he's behind some of them. "The Confederacy" my ass.

From what I've heard, Bernie and his branch have more in common with FDR than the Third Way Democrats do.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#172431: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:49:34 PM

Bernie didn't endorse gay marriage until 2009. 06 he just wanted to leave it to the states

New Survey coming this weekend!
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#172432: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:49:57 PM

I really don't understand the fact that many people want equality for all, socially speaking, but when it comes to economical issues, it should be each one on his own and hope the big corporations are always going to have the interests of average Joe at heart.

Life is unfair...
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172433: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:50:39 PM

From what I've heard, Bernie and his branch have more in common with FDR than the Third Way Democrats do.

This is a response to my critique how? FDR, while one of my favourite presidents (and the one who, according to a Facebook poll I am most like), approved Japanese internment camps and had a record on race relations that could charitably be described as mixed.

And what do you mean "from what I've heard"? If you're going to argue with me (or anyone else), please do some research rather than relying on hearsay.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#172434: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:52:06 PM

No he hasn't. Seriously, this is a claim that gets floated every time that someone challenges any of Sanders' progressive credentials, and yet it never actually gets backed up. Sanders came out in favour of gay marriage in 2006. That's his first public stance on the topic. Now that's still earlier than a lot of his contemporaries but it's not the eighties.

You're right that he first came out publically in favor of gay marriage in 2006 but he's been defending the LGBT community since the 90's at least.

By all measures, Sanders was ahead of his time in supporting gay rights. In 1983, as mayor of Burlington, he signed a Gay Pride Day proclamation calling it a civil rights issue. He was one of just 67 members in the House of Representatives to vote against the Defense of Marriage Act, a politically tough decision he prides himself on and points to as a key progressive bona fide. Sanders opposed Don’t Ask Don’t Tell in 1993, another President Bill Clinton-era policy, and supported civil unions in Vermont in 2000.

http://time.com/4089946/bernie-sanders-gay-marriage/

Bernie's a lot more conniving than his ardent followers want to believe though.

edited 3rd Feb '17 2:54:40 PM by MadSkillz

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#172435: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:54:18 PM

I really don't understand the fact that many people want equality for all, socially speaking, but when it comes to economical issues, it should be each one on his own and hope the big corporations are always going to have the interests of average Joe at heart.

Lionizing the wealthy is what creates that outlook.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#172436: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:55:34 PM

@Ambar You need to chill out when you try and debate.

Whenever I see you on the forums, you're always ready to lobby an attack when someone pulls out an even mildly dissenting opinion. And I can tell you're about to pull an attack post on me if I respond in any way that leads to argument.

edited 3rd Feb '17 2:57:27 PM by MadSkillz

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172437: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:57:15 PM

"Opposed Don't Ask, Don't Tell". God I hate it when people cite that as a good thing. Do you guys genuinely not understand what things were like for gays in the military before DADT? The Army (or Navy or Air Force) could literally interrogate you about your sexuality when you tried to join. Or after you joined. And not only could they fire you if you told them the truth, but they could discharge you dishonourably or even court-martial you if you lied about it.

DADT made it illegal for the Army to investigate a member's sexuality. It was a compromise solution that allowed gays who wanted to serve in the military to actually serve in the military. If it hadn't passed their situation would have remained utterly untenable. As bad as things got under DADT—and I do not pretend they did not get pretty bad—they were even worse before hand.

@Ambar You need to chill out when you try and debate.

And you need to have an argument beyond "from what I've heard". Your point? I'm happy to debate any point you might raise, but I can't engage with hearsay from an undefined source.

edited 3rd Feb '17 2:58:26 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#172438: Feb 3rd 2017 at 2:57:56 PM

[up] Proving my point exactly.

[down] lol

edited 3rd Feb '17 3:03:56 PM by MadSkillz

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172439: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:00:41 PM

If you think that's an attack, then you have clearly never actually been attacked. I'd have to go after you personally for it to be an attack and that hasn't happened. I've said I can't engage with statements like "from what I've heard Bernie has a lot in common with FDR" because I can't. That's not an argument. It's a vague statement of hearsay.

Oh, and before this goes any further I remind you that criticizing one another directly is a good way to get ourselves banned. So why don't we stick to the actual topic at hand.

edited 3rd Feb '17 3:01:39 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#172440: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:01:21 PM

Stop, you two.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#172441: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:01:52 PM

[up][up][up][up] The bill was going to pass anyway, by opposing it, Sanders showed his point of view that what was necessary for equality was more than just a meak compromise. Not something productive, but shouldn't be condemned for it either.

edited 3rd Feb '17 3:02:12 PM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172442: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:04:16 PM

[up]Thing is I don't condemn Sanders for it. I just don't give him any points either. Like a lot of what he's done in his career it was grandstanding in the name of ideological purity. In this case, nobody got hurt so I do not especially care, but I'm not willing to cite it as evidence that he's a crusader for gay rights.

In general what bothers me about Sanders is not the man himself, who is a fairly typical politician record wise, with a fair amount of good calls and a not insignificant number of bad calls, under his belt, but the degree to which some people want to pretend he's something else altogether.

edited 3rd Feb '17 3:05:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#172443: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:05:30 PM

Protest votes against reasonable compromises are how Trump happens.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172444: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:06:34 PM

[up]That too. The tendency for Sanders—and perhaps more importantly for people like him—to scream blue murder in the face of pragmatism can and sometimes does have the net effect of making compromise look like a bad thing and radicalizing positions.

edited 3rd Feb '17 3:08:13 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#172445: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:07:24 PM

[up][up][tup]

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172446: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:11:26 PM

Maybe it's my nation of origin ruining my outlook but whenever someone tries to tell me how radical and amazing Bernie Sanders is, I just end up thinking about how much I miss Jack Layton. When I look at Sanders I don't see what I saw in Layton. I see a grandstanding blowhard. A well-intentioned blowhard, make no mistake, a blowhard with whom I have many positions in common, but a blowhard nonetheless.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#172447: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:19:56 PM

I've softened somewhat on Sanders because he's indicated and acted on opposition to a lot of Trump's actions in a way that I hadn't expected (i.e. not just the stock "cabinet of billionaires" critique but also opposing assaults of reproductive rights, the Muslim Ban, and to my surprise, voter suppression). And to his credit, I believe he's opposed a lot of Trump nominees, probably more than at least some Democrats have.

On the other hand, it's hard for me to forgive the times before and after the election where he's framed the Democrat's interest in social equality as a bad thing as a way of presenting himself as someone who could speak to/belonged to the white working class.

I also would still say that his pitch is basically premised on the idea that all Democrats, except for the ones he himself supports are bad, which is not really helpful in terms of aiding the party in winning any elections, whether down ballot or national.

edited 3rd Feb '17 3:23:39 PM by Hodor2

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#172448: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:21:49 PM

Not to mention his, and his fanbase's support for Tulsi Gabbard. Look what that bought her constituents.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#172449: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:29:01 PM

[up] I mean, from my research of her, other then supporting the Syrian Regime and Putin, she's still very liberal; in certain areas, way more liberal then most Democrats.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#172450: Feb 3rd 2017 at 3:30:40 PM

The key part of that sentence is "aside from supporting the Syrian Regime and Putin."

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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