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LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#172301: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:29:36 PM

I wish we had a real conservative party, instead of...whatever it is the GOP is now. Hell, I might even consider voting for that party.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#172302: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:30:29 PM

Golden Mean fallacy more refers to the idea that there's always a perfect "moderate" position in between any two. Sometimes one is just wrong. Sometimes both are.

As for two sides, there can be infinitely many sides. What you want is reasonable sides, of which there can be one or none. It all goes back to you have to think about it...

[up]The democrats are the conservatives by European standards actually. (And per the actual definition of adopt change cautiously and respect traditions, like say democracy and respect for the press).

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:33:16 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#172303: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:35:05 PM

In GENERAL, the democrats are the conservative party yes. As I've said multiple times, Obama is more of a conservative than most of the GOP.

That's why I'm so insistent on labeling the GOP and many of their voters as reactionaries. I can respect proper conservatives though we might disagree on certain things, but reactionaries always want to return to a "golden age" which usually means an age where certain people had it much worse and they are either conscious of that and that is specifically what they want, or they are indifferent to it.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#172304: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:35:12 PM

I mean, no, there aren't always two sides to everything. That's where alternative facts comes from.

We know definitively that the Earth is round now. With science.

Trying to present the other side with someone saying it's flat is sorta pointless and dumb.

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:37:12 PM by unnoun

justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#172305: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:35:37 PM

Draghinazzo, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone actually that bigoted. There's absolutely a side where "the LGBT agenda goes directly against my long-held, traditional religious values, and I'm uncomfortable with that. I don't want the gays to burn." Isn't that freedom simply as valid? The religious freedom?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#172307: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:35:45 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up]We have a conservative party-it is called the "Democrats". The US is without anything resembling a progressive party that is sane, so the Democrats absorb the social progressives by default; by the standards of most other democracies, the Democratic party is Centrist to center-right.

And multi-[nja]'d.

@justhelping: Seriously? have you heard anything said by the speakers for the millions of Evangelicals in this country? The hatred and bigotry is real and exactly that open and virulent, and it is not limited to fringe groups like WBC.

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:39:20 PM by ViperMagnum357

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#172308: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:39:44 PM

[up][up][up] They already have that freedom. You can be as bigoted as you want as long as you're not bothering others with it. But that's not where the issue lies. Religious freedom as it applies to politics is them asking to be openly discriminatory on the basis of their religion, thereby denying the freedoms of others.

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:40:04 PM by TheRoguePenguin

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#172309: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:40:19 PM

Draghinazzo, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone actually that bigoted. There's absolutely a side where "the LGBT agenda goes directly against my long-held, traditional religious values, and I'm uncomfortable with that. I don't want the gays to burn." Isn't that freedom simply as valid? The religious freedom?

A surprising amount of people actually ARE pretty close to being that bigoted, as some people have pointed out before me.

But really, what that person is saying in your example ends up being the same thing as what I said in practice, except put a lot more nicely and much closer to what people realistically opposing LGBT rights would say.

Here's the thing: your rights end when another's begin. I will never grant any legitimacy to someone who is using their spirituality as a cloak to deny other people's civil rights. "Religious freedom" means you can believe and worship whatever you like. When that begins to impede on other people's rights, then it is not religious freedom, it's the right oppress people you don't like based on arbitrary reasons. The US is a secular state.

So if a person doesn't like gay people, then whatever, they're bigots as far as I'm concerned but they can hold whatever opinions they want and obviously I can't do anything about that. But if they're trying to deny people jobs, the ability to get civil unions, to be recognized by the gender they actually identify as, etc, then they've crossed a line.

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:47:15 PM by Draghinazzo

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#172310: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:40:42 PM

Someone, at some point, if/when Trump and the Republicans are no longer in power - is going to have to speak about some things that might make them very unpopular with the public, like acknowledging american exceptionalism for the sanctimonious crock it is, telling people that 50's america isn't coming back (and that it wasn't the basket of roses some people think they are), that blaming "the other" for their problem will never improve anything, etc.

If people insist on clinging to these illusions then nothing will change.

I keep thinking back to that article posted here a few days ago from the person who grew up in a religious right community. I mean, these people have been working for decades to push their incredibly socially restrictive political agenda. And it really did start at a grassroots level. I remember hearing something about the modern Republican movement gaining steam that way as well.

Now, indoctrinating children like in that article is something I absolutely do not advocate, but I think there's a few promising avenues. Getting involved in local politics, even simply going out and trying to open up dialogue with people who are open to it (if you can, I am certainly not going to suggest that burden to people who might be in danger from doing so) - which I think is often more effective than talking to some faceless person who lives in an online bubble. I mean, I'm obviously not saying it does not happen, but sometimes things get lost in translation online.

And if someone has kids or is in a position of influence over them - it's so important to make sure to raise them to be decent human beings. Not 'to share my political beliefs' or anything, but to believe that ever person deserves protecting, to stand up for and with the marginalized and persecuted, to question easy answers and to try and have as much information as possible before making decisions. From my personal experience, when I was growing up my dad made a point of not telling his kids what his political and religious opinions were (my mother, not as much, but she taught me that sometimes the most devastating thing you can say to someone who's being an asshole is "have a nice day!"). He thought he shouldn't have that kind of influence over us, but that it was more important for him to teach us to think things through and care about and look after people, instead. I turned out alright, I think.

Although, really sometimes all you can do is just hope people come to their senses. Like my grandfather said after the election "I am old, and done waiting for some of you to become better people." In the end, the anger, selfishness, and entitlement of some people might just be too much to overcome.

...well, this post sure has a Downer Ending, doesn't it?

justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#172311: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:46:02 PM

I fully support gay marriage- I don't support forcing pastors to officiate such weddings in the name of "tolerance" when it goes directly against their belief.

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#172312: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:46:59 PM

[up]No one does that, at least besides some asshole pulling a stunt. Marriage licenses are issued by county, and there is no need of a ceremony.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#172313: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:49:16 PM

Well, there is the Greens.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#172314: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:49:27 PM

[up][up][up]I agree with you. I don't think any church should be forced to officiate a religious ceremony if it goes against their beliefs. Any church is free to do what it pleases within the realm of its own domain - religion.

That's not really what most people are talking about though, they care about being discriminated in the job market, of being denied the legal benefits of civil unions, things like that.

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:54:31 PM by Draghinazzo

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#172315: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:49:55 PM

I don't think they should be forced to. I just think they're assholes for not being willing to.

Also, putting the word "tolerance" in quotes isn't necessarily the greatest look.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#172316: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:51:21 PM

Frankly, as a Christian, I roll my eyes at the idea that my religion should oppose Gay Marriage. And, accordingly, roll my eyes at priests who act like it does.

Invoking God to justify intolerance is cretinous.

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:53:42 PM by Gilphon

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#172317: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:52:04 PM

...I'm reminded of something my older brother once said to my mother: "You never told us what to think."

Mom has her faults, but indoctrinating her kids is not one of them, for which I am eternally grateful.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#172318: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:54:26 PM

[up]I wish more of us could say the same, but I consider my political views an aberration after my upbringing. Some people should just not be parents, or responsible for anything more complicated than a microwave.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#172319: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:56:09 PM

"Now, indoctrinating children like in that article is something I absolutely do not advocate, but I think there's a few promising avenues. Getting involved in local politics, even simply going out and trying to open up dialogue with people who are open to it (if you can, I am certainly not going to suggest that burden to people who might be in danger from doing so) - which I think is often more effective than talking to some faceless person who lives in an online bubble. I mean, I'm obviously not saying it does not happen, but sometimes things get lost in translation online. "

Thousands of us across the country are already doing it, man. We really are.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#172320: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:57:29 PM

I don't watch South Park, but I kind of hope they don't pussy out. It sounds like the creators are really complaining that it's too hard to make fun of the new regime right now. But is it really that hard?

Do not obey in advance.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#172321: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:57:43 PM

And in some cases forcing that kind of thing on your children just backfires anyway.

My parents thought they needed religion as a pillar of morality - but all of us just rebelled eventually and we haven't looked back since, it wasn't really for us. All my family is much happier now.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#172322: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:57:58 PM

[up][up][up]...Yeah, reading it over I was kind of being Captain Obvious, there. Sorry.

edited 2nd Feb '17 6:58:29 PM by Pseudopartition

justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#172323: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:58:00 PM

I forgot I'm the political minority here. I'll let you guys have your discussion while I slink off into the sunset.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#172324: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:59:58 PM

Oh, don't do that. Having an opposition viewpoint around is valuable.

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#172325: Feb 2nd 2017 at 7:00:45 PM

I feel like we have a bad habit of scaring off any conservative who comes in here.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison

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