Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
^^
We probably agree on the Trayvon Martin case Tomu.
^
A more polite version of "shut the fuck up" is not a debate.
Without steering too far from the issue, let me use illegal immigration as an example. I've had lots of situations both online and IRL where simply pointing out that Illegal Immigration is a crime by virtue of the word "Illegal" and next thing you know I'm painted as a bigoted Nationalist POS who hates hispanics.
No "They took our jerbs!" no "They can stay in their own damn country harumph!" or any of that garbage, just "Well no shit they got arrested and deported, what they are doing is a crime." Just some common sense stating a fact, and I always get dogpiled for it.
But god forbid someone raises the question of a school that bans students from flying Mexican flags all over. Liberals will have a fucking heart attack.
edited 1st May '12 6:38:41 PM by Barkey
Really? Because my thoughts on it are "It is absofuckinglutely ridiculous to have a law that lets you legally shoot people because you feel threatened" which goes against your previous statement of "someone steals mah TV, I'll shoot em in the back!" line.
Well, hold up. Are you complaining about whiney liberals on campuses, or about the Democratic party? I mean, Bad Argument Hippy or whatever she's called is a meme and all, but I've never heard the Democratic party say "HOW DARE YOU POINT OUT THEY'RE ILLEGAL!"
Obviously, it becomes an issue of what sorts of immigration should and shouldn't be illegal, and how to deal with it. Obviously, those with an authoritarian mindset think "They broke the law they must be punished" whereas us utilitarians are more concerned with why the law exists in the first place.
edited 1st May '12 6:39:41 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
@Baff: From what I've seen, no one really wants to debate anything in the current political climate.
That said, I'm with Barkey. I have plenty of liberal friends who champion free speech at every opportunity, yet say that "someone ought to do something" about assholes like the WBC. Free speech is free speech, and it comes with the sometimes disagreeable side effect of other people saying things you find repulsive.
They're free to say them. And you're free to call them a douchebag for it. That's how free speech works.
Anyhow, Barkey's also right in that both sides of the American political spectrum are made up of cynical opportunists who will claim whatever it takes to get a few more votes. Like him, I feel tragically under-represented in today's political climate.
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~wait, why isn't it in your rights to defend yourself and your property?
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." TwitterI don't like the Stand Your Ground Law. It hamstrings police involvement by automatically assuming the innocence of the shooter upon being invoked. The entire point of detaining or arresting someone who just killed someone else in self-defense is to make sure that that is the case so that you didn't just let a murderer cry "Self-Defense!" and run off.
I do support the whole killing a guy who breaks into your house approach, but I also support cooperating fully with the police department to prove that that is exactly what happened.
edited 1st May '12 6:49:06 PM by Barkey
I mean yeah, obviously you should have to prove that you did in fact use an appropriate level of force given a situation, but otherwise, I don't know what's so ridiculous about punching back when someone is trying to steal your lunch money.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." TwitterMaybe, if we're lucky, the Democratic and Republican parties won't hog all the votes and let somepony else win the election for once?
I mean, come on, let the other parties have a turn! The socialists have waited since Eugene V. Debs died, so I say they should get the first turn.
If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton booksWell, lets take policy on illegal immigration. I am deathly opposed to the entire concept of "sanctuary cities" these are public officials(mayors like Gavin Newsom of SF) who are essentially publicly telling police officers not to enforce a federal law. Via the Supremacy Clause, the state cannot override a federal law, anyone who establishes their city officially a sanctuary city should be thrown in prison or barred from public office. You don't do that shit.
But Democrats are always so quick to defend such policies. Lets take Arizona and their immigration laws into consideration as another example. I was on an Exercise in Arizona some months back, and so I was curious and asked a lot of the locals about what they thought about the immigration laws. The Hispanics I talked to(Americanized Hispanics, the type who were born here and such) didn't care. They said they don't get stopped for it. And you know why? Because the actual letter of the law barely made the headlines, there's a fucking loophole from hell.
The Arizona Immigration Law that caused so much fucking controversy in the first place, required probable cause to stop someone and ask for immigration papers. Nothing changed. The only difference is that if you got stopped by the cops, they now had the complete legal right to demand that you provide proof of citizenship in the form of a *gasp* drivers license, or a SSN card, or a state ID, or a military ID, or a student ID. You know, the same sort of shit that a cop will demand to see regardless, in the case of a drivers license(which you should have if you're driving a fucking car in the first place)
The residents of Bisbee and Douglas, AZ, which is in spitting distance of the border, essentially told me that nothing had changed as far as they knew, and that they didn't see what the big goddamn deal was. Cops still required probable cause so they could ask you for something they would ask you for anyway. Big fucking deal.
But Democrats himmed and hawwed and crowed about both affairs like it was a civil rights violation from hell, both politician and civilian supporter alike. It's fucking disgusting.
@Tomu
I think it should be absolutely justified to kill someone who is breaking into your home or trying to mug you. But I also think people who do that are subject to the scrutiny of the law and a thorough investigation by the police, just to make sure you're on the up and up. I am a cop after all, did you think I'd like a law that let people get away with murder without scrutiny?
edited 1st May '12 6:51:25 PM by Barkey
Thing is, conservatives usually advocate censorship.
While libs advocate freedom of speech.
You guy are just mad because when you talk to people they disagree with you. But I have news for you, that is not censorship, is ideological disagreement.
For instance, when I tell people that I think the biggest and most horendus act of terrorism in history was the bombing of Hiroshima people go ballistic on me, and I have had myself thump countless times because of it, but I dont go around whining about censorship because I know I hurt peoples sensibilities.
edited 1st May '12 6:55:19 PM by Baff
I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.Well, I don't know what the hell the deal with then is but Romney for one came out and explicitly said that the purpose of such laws as he sees them is "self-deportation" wherein you make things so miserable for immigrants, they go back to where-ever it is they came from. If the law isn't accomplishing this, well, okay then.
@Barkley: I'm just illustrating a point where we agree to disagree.
edited 1st May '12 6:52:21 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
You guy are just mad because when you talk to people they disagree with you. But I have news for you, that is not censorship, is ideological disagreement.
The reason I'm not discussing the sins of conservatives more is because we already know so many of them are bastards.
I'd think you would know me better than that from this forum, I love a good debate with an alternative point of view. I wouldn't be in this thread if I didn't, I'd have just said stfu and stopped posting. Going all smarmy psycho asshole on someone with a dissenting opinion isn't a debate, it's a statement.
Besides take the ACLU.
The liberal advocacy group per excellence.
They have defended countless times the civil liberties of Christians and other conservative groups, including their freedom of speech.
![]()
and how do you think the socialists feel? Welcome to the party.
Labeling the ACLU as obnoxious is one of the best propagandistic successes of the right in America.
edited 1st May '12 6:59:32 PM by Baff
I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.I never picked a bone with the ACLU, don't see why you brought them up.
I think the ACLJ is far more hideous, their conservative counterpart. While the ACLU is obnoxious as fuck, they are equal opportunity obnoxious as fuck. Some of their causes I support, while I'd say a good 2/3rds of them I think are retarded.
edited 1st May '12 6:56:18 PM by Barkey
Allowing freedom of speech allows bigotry, hate-speech, and verbal torture.
If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books

Batshit Christians Strike Again: More at 11.
It was shenanigans like those that made the reps lose my support. I wish I were in Romneys position so I could tell those family values churchy groups to go screw themselves, if only they weren't such a huge voter bloc.
Maybe you should take a deep breath and calm down.
I was pointing out how quick they are to rush to the defense of some people, and how quick they are to damn others. It isn't a stomp on civil liberties, the stomp on civil liberties is the fact that if a minority feels oppressed the Dems are knights in shining armor, but if anyone from the majority has a bone to pick with anybody from the minority, they turn into raging assholes 9/10 times.
I was also demonstrating how Republicans do the same. Quick to talk about how the religious views of non-christians don't matter because America was founded on Christian Values, and quick to talk about freedom of religion and how oppressed Christians are as soon as anybody dogs them for their bullshit that stomps on the rights of others.
edited 1st May '12 6:34:06 PM by Barkey