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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#164476: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:11:44 PM

If that's not a trustworthy source on that, there literally does not exist a trustworthy source. Which is not a possibility I'm ruling out, for the record, but if we're entering 'let's not trust what literally anyone says' territory, then I'll have to ask for evidence Assange didn't make up the contents of those emails wholesale.

If Assange made up the contents of the e-mails, why don't the DNC and Clinton campaign say so? They could say "those e-mails aren't ours and we didn't do what they say we did". Instead they're saying "how dare Russia hack our e-mails". Why would they lie that the e-mails are authentic when the e-mails make them look bad? This is a principle called "citation of embarrassment".

When someone is targeting a specific person or group, it's perfectly logical to examine that person for any kind of a bias or motive in what they're doing. Assange performed a specific action, and it is impossible to separate him from what he did.

The people who look bad because of the e-mails are admitting that the e-mails are real. This means the e-mails reveal facts that don't change because of who released them. Not only is it possible to separate them from who released them, it's necessary to do so. The alternative is a hypocritical standard where a person's corruption should only be revealed if you want them to loose and corrupt people should be allowed to get away with anything if you want them to win. The implication is that the American people should sometimes have info withheld from them to trick them into voting a certain way for the greater good. That's a fundamentally anti-democratic position.

Also, a lot of what was in those documents he originally released were basically a whole bunch of boring, workaday bullshit that happens in politics.

And some of that info put people in danger, I believe.

Maybe, but be careful. The people in power are likely to say the release of information endangered someone regardless if its true or not when the info makes them look bad. This was also the Bush Jr. Administration's go-to attack on any release of info about the war crimes they ordered in Guantanamo and any criticism of their so-called "War On Terror".

Sixteen intelligence agencies in all reported the belief that Russia was deliberally fucking with the US elections. It's very rare to get that level of agreement among several organizations that frequently compete over jurisdiction.

Interesting. May I see a source on that?

Also also, that is a shitty comparison you used.

How so?

Also also also, how do you not realize that a foreign country fucking around in our elections is a fucking terrible thing? It's terrible when we do it, it's terrible when anyone does it, and it's terrible for our future to be in the hands of an authoritarian country because that is one of the most basic subversions of democracy in the world. Our concern is a bit more than "the election didn't go the way we wanted it to.

Even if Russia was behind it, all they did was release information. They didn't force America to vote the way we did. They didn't lie in order to trick us (again, the people who look bad because of the leak still admit the leaded info is real). They simply informed us. Their reason for informing us may have been a selfish one, but they still informed us.

By your logic, if you told anyone the bad things about Trump before the election in hopes of getting them to not vote for him, you were horribly mucking with the election. Are you in favor of info about the candidates that could be relevant to their conduct in office being withheld from the public in order to trick them into voting a certain way for the greater good? I'm honestly asking, are you in favor of that? Because it sounds like you are.

Obviously, if Russia released lies to trick us into voting a certain way or hacked into voting machines to change the results, that would be bad. But that doesn't appear to be what happened. Your anger should instead be directed at people who thought the info was a good enough reason to let Trump win (which incidentally doesn't include me, since I held by nose and voted Clinton) or, better yet, at Clinton and the DNC for doing the bad things that they were exposed as doing.

Granted, it's questionable how much the e-mails even contributed to the results given that she was cleared before the election, but that's beside the point.

edited 27th Dec '16 10:35:04 PM by SeriesOfNumbers

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#164477: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:15:30 PM

[up][[citation needed]]

Have you considered that maybe a large political organization is not capable of going through literally every email Wikileaks has released and cross checking them against their own databases?

edited 27th Dec '16 10:15:57 PM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#164478: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:16:02 PM

I don't know, but since we've established that they're a bunch of liars anyway, does the 'why' of every little lie really make a difference? After all, why does the FBI, who've been supporting Trump, back up the bogus story of Russia being behind the hacks? Hell, why do any of them arguing in favour of something that sounds like a conspiracy theory?

Or, sure, [up] could be a reason. Why not.

edited 27th Dec '16 10:28:15 PM by Gilphon

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164479: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:36:30 PM

Wikileaks has become a fucking disgrace, and Assange can rot in that embassy.

Concerning why the Rust Belt went to Trump:

The whole "economic anxiety" thing is half-true at best, utter horseshit at worst.

The people who were actually poor and desperate were all "Oh, Crap! Trump and the GOP want to gut the social safety nets I need to live!" and voted for HRC.

The people who mostly went to Trump were (mostly white) middle class people who still had fairly comfortable lives (thanks in part to the improving economy under Obama's watch) but who found it just a bit more difficult to make ends meet, to pay off mortgages, to pay for their kids' college, with each passing month or year. They were in a slow but steady decline as the industries they relied on for decades gradually began to phase out the need for more workers or were just becoming obsolete. They believed that if things continued this way, they and theirs would be swept aside. And God forbid that they make any real effort to change themselves to adjust to the times.

Then along comes Trump. He's a "self-made" billionaire so obviously he knows a thing or two about success right? He's a celebrity, he was on TV! He beat all those fat cats in the primaries! He's against THE MAN! He's going around wearing a hardhat and eating fast food like Joe the Plumber! And he's promising to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! YEAH!

Best part? He doesn't ask them to change. Because he's going to make things go back to the way they were. He's gonna take the country back from all of those "other" people who aren't actual Americans like they are. Chicken in every pot.

Yeah, there's the bigotry and the sexism and the talk of corruption. But that's all coming from the evil "liberal" media anyway. And besides...EMAILS! BENGHAZI!

edited 27th Dec '16 10:37:53 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#164480: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:45:34 PM

Have you considered that maybe a large political organization is not capable of going through literally every email Wikileaks has released and cross checking them against their own databases?

If any of the things they're now being accused of having done because of the e-mails are things they haven't done, then they should know that at least some of the e-mails are fake. Then they could at least say "we didn't do that and the e-mails that say we did are fake". But they haven't issued any denials of that nature. Besides, why not hire large numbers of people to do the cross-referencing. Or better yet, the intelligence agencies that are supposed to investigate hacks anyway could cross-reference to make sure a cyber-crime was actually committed. The US government executes massive operations every day.

@G Ilphon: Do you have a source that says there's a really large number of agencies agreeing on this? I've seen that claim stated or implied multiple times now, but I didn't find any article that said that when I tried to Google it.

edited 27th Dec '16 10:47:28 PM by SeriesOfNumbers

SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#164481: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:50:39 PM

And God forbid that they make any real effort to change themselves to adjust to the times.

Change themselves in what way?

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#164482: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:51:10 PM

Sure. here's a thing.

edited 27th Dec '16 10:52:43 PM by Gilphon

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164484: Dec 27th 2016 at 10:55:48 PM

Trump didn't win because of economic anxiety. He won because the USA is collectively going through a mid-life crisis. And Trump is the used car salesman selling them a Mid-Life Crisis Car. Problem is, said car only looks like a Cool Car thanks to the gilding, and it's actually The Alleged Car.

Disgusted, but not surprised
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#164485: Dec 27th 2016 at 11:04:39 PM

[up] I'd actually say that Trump's trying to sell suspicious penis enlargement pills to an America suspicious that their significant other may not be as affectionate towards them as they'd think.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164486: Dec 27th 2016 at 11:07:55 PM

[up] I suspect Trump would know a thing or two about anxiety when it comes to undersized body parts.

Disgusted, but not surprised
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#164487: Dec 27th 2016 at 11:35:39 PM

Anyways, #Thanks Donald is trending on Twitter.

#Thanks Donald for making me appreciate President Obama more than I can say for all he has done!

Celebrities are dying rather than see you as President. #Thanks Donald

Putting the "peach" in impeachable... #Thanks Donald

I've researched #Trump so much I speak fluent #Russian now #Thanks Donald #trumpleaks

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#164488: Dec 27th 2016 at 11:52:56 PM

I'll never forgive this country for not electing Hillary.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#164489: Dec 28th 2016 at 1:51:34 AM

I do find it funny when Republicans say that Trump will restore America's reputation overseas. Because, a few outliers (namely Israel) aside, other countries are either reacting with concern (core allies, China), smug glee (Russia, North Korea, Turkey, Philippines, ie countries currently lead by ruthless despots, if not outright psychopaths), abject horror (Eastern Europe, South Korea, Japan, Iran), or just sad laughter (everyone else).

The US is never going to live down Trump, even if it comes out of his administration intact.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164491: Dec 28th 2016 at 4:28:11 AM

[up] Heh, I don't regret my vote for HRC one bit even though she lost.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#164492: Dec 28th 2016 at 4:30:00 AM

I find it heartbreaking. Like watching The Office.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#164493: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:23:52 AM

Just skimming the past couple pages because I find it very difficult to take any negative comments about Clinton seriously right now for the simple reason that Trump has spent the last two months doing nearly all the things Clinton has been accused of and then some.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164494: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:36:54 AM

Kind of my fault. I made a post expressing frustration after visiting a chatroom on another site with someone still claiming that HRC and the DNC stole the primaries from Sanders, and that Sanders totally would have beaten Trump in a landslide.

That's kind of where it all started.

edited 28th Dec '16 5:37:21 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#164495: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:37:16 AM

@164,451 and 164,452: Thanks. But according to that source, we don't have each agency independently declaring Russia's responsibility. We have one office that supposedly speaks for all the others declaring it. That one office could be lying.

@164,462: Why such binary thinking? One can criticize Clinton without defending Trump. I happen to think she was the lesser of two evils. I'm just annoyed that people are portraying exposure of her corruption as a bad thing.

edited 28th Dec '16 5:38:07 AM by SeriesOfNumbers

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#164496: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:37:25 AM

As we learned time and time again, the Republicans are held to a lower standard. And Donald Trump was held to the lowest standard in American political history. Probably political history in general.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164497: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:38:53 AM

[up] GOP voters are very forgiving of the people who pander to their prejudices and pride. The rich ones also enjoy the tax breaks.

The religious nutjobs are pretty much owned by the GOP since the latter are all for banning abortion.

edited 28th Dec '16 5:40:10 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#164498: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:41:25 AM

@164,465: By who? By their supporters, you mean? I think both sides hold the party they more closely identify with to a lower standard.

edited 28th Dec '16 5:42:09 AM by SeriesOfNumbers

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#164499: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:43:47 AM

[up]Yeah, no, bullshit

Anthony Weiner was run out of town due to being unfaithful.

Meanwhile, Mark Sanford managed to win reelection as governor of South Carolina

Proglottid Since: Mar, 2010
#164500: Dec 28th 2016 at 5:46:34 AM

Trump managed to get away with pretty much everything he said and did because he has a penis, first and foremost


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