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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164376: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:16:10 PM

[up][up] Coming from Clinton, it didn't feel genuine to a decently sized slice of the American public; she's too associated with the Clinton years, and by extension with neoliberalism. Regardless of what her actual position was, far too many people couldn't detach their opinion of Hillary Clinton from their opinion of Bill Clinton.

That was exasperated by the very small roster of candidates the democrats had going into 2016. It was blatantly obvious from the beginning that it was going to be Clinton, and the GOP spent the better part of 8 years preparing for this eventuality.

edited 27th Dec '16 3:20:50 PM by CaptainCapsase

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#164377: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:20:03 PM

[up][up]Unfortunately no, just don't have the money for it. Wanna save up some cash and go buy a nice surplus Mosin to play with.

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#164378: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:21:21 PM

Sanders isn't arguing with Clinton, he's arguing with the people who say that the entire Rust Belt is fundamentally racist and should be burned.

Honestly I tire of Fox's insane hatred of anything Sanders says, it's like someone took the hatred Bernie or Bust folks have for Clinton and instead aimed it at Sanders. The insane blind hatred was stupid when aimed at Clinton and it's stupid when aimed at Sanders.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#164379: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:25:53 PM

[up][up][up][up]There is a gun thread on this board that is probably a better place to discuss that then here.

[up][up][up][up][up][up]There is history of economic justice only being allowed to be prused with (at least) the implicit exclusion of minorities, particularly blacks.

The famous example was FDR's plans for Universal Healthcare being derailed because the necessity of desegregating was considered political untenable due to the southern democrat vote.

I imagine that there are many on the social justice side who fear being thrown under the bus for precisely that reason. It is not helped by Sander's continuing to align himself with the white working class and "denouncing identity politics" despite what happened in the most recent election.

edited 27th Dec '16 3:26:18 PM by Mio

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#164380: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:30:48 PM

What people who fear being thrown under the bus are ignoring who Sanders is arguing against. He's arguing against the "All Trump voters are deplorable, we need to suppress the white vote, democracy has failed" lot, not Clinton, not the reasonable people but the "anyone who voted for Trump is irredeemably evil regardless of if they got tricked and played like a fiddle due to being a low information voter".

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#164381: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:32:15 PM

Look at it this:

This election shown that there is still a large amount of white voters willing to vote for a blowhard with blatant anti-minority policies if there's a slim chance that they're status in life will improve

The conversation has turned to how the Democrats (especially coming from someone who's not registered a Democrat) can effectively pander to these same white voters. The same voters who view minorities' interest as either expendable, or worse, they think it actively opposes their own.

And the problem is that it never leads back to "how can we make sure we don't throw the minorities under the bus." The conversation at the end of the day is always about white people and them alone.

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#164382: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:40:30 PM

[up][up][up] Again, there is not a single Democratic politician anno 2016 saying that minorities should be ignored. So I don't really see why the FDR example is relevant.

It's clear from Sanders's quotes that he's not talking about the issues of minorities, but rather the media obsession about the individual candidates rather than the issues they represent.

[up] Not 'pander to', but again win over voters who have voted Democrat for years but feel that they have been ignored by 'the system'. This also includes black voters, whose turnout was much lower than expected this election cycle, I may add.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#164383: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:40:56 PM

[up][up][awesome] Yes, we shouldn't pander to the kinds of people who don't care that minorities might get hurt. We won the popular vote, and we need to realize the way to win the electoral college is to have all the media attention.

[up]Yes, many people including minorities didn't take Trump's extremely large hateful base seriously. The media played into it as well, giving him free advertising.

edited 27th Dec '16 3:43:27 PM by Wildcard

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164384: Dec 27th 2016 at 3:44:47 PM

[up] Unless you can muster the political will to get a constitutional amendment passed, winning the popular vote is irrelevant. No that hairbrained plan to do it state by state won't work, since that requires red states to sign on and they'll never do that so long as the EC advantages them.

Regarding the need for media attention, I assume you mean run a celebrity with even less experience than Trump? Because corporate media will never give fair coverage to issues; it's all about spectacle, and working people up into a tizzy since that generates ratings.

edited 27th Dec '16 3:46:21 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#164386: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:02:23 PM

@Perian: Just as Clinton appeared to some people to be a "corrupt wall-street shill", Sanders comes across as someone who is at best clueless on race, or in fact might be unknowingly racist.

You have to understand that for many minorities, and particularly african americans, Sander's message of economic justice doesn't matter since without addressing the discriminatory nature of the system. Yes, I'm aware that Sanders is aware of this too, but some felt he did not speak about that enough. That is why he ultimately did not take any of the southern primaries, and I imagine his rather careless (if perhaps slightly true) statement about how clients support among the (mostly balck) southern primaries was worth less then his support in northern/ swing states.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164387: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:02:43 PM

[up][up] People have serious suggested that here and elsewhere, and several celebrities have declared interest in the 2020 primaries.

edited 27th Dec '16 4:02:50 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#164388: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:05:41 PM

If you are going to make accusations about Democrats planning stupid and/or evil things you need to produce evidence.

Because it seems over the last few pages that you are engaging in "bothsidesism" by making vague allusions to what unnamed Democratic officials (or even Tv Tropes posters) have argued.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#164389: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:12:08 PM

Wow none of you STILL aren't getting what's wrong wth his statement despite me explaining this multiple times what's wrong with his asinine comments.

So let's break this down, again: Bernie is still stuck in this mentality that rising tides will lift all boats, despite the fact that some boats are better suited for riding the tides than others.

He's the embodiment of why populism, left or right, is so dangrous. Let's be reald populism has always been for white people. My ancestors and just about any minority were always, with good reason, skeptical of populist movements. He says we shouldn't have identity politics, but yet his entire movement is based on white working class identity politics.

Here thinks all the problems with racism will go away if the billionaires and millionaires paid their fair share, which is false. He wouldn't be so dismissive of identity politics if he was even remotely aware of how race and identity and economics can be intertwined, yet completely separate in other instances.

He immediately wants to pander to these racist Trump supporters despite we having mountains of evidence that economic anxiety is a major factor in Trumps victory. It's not. You wanna know who else is a working class? Blacks, hispanics, Asians, Native americans. Did they go out and vote for Cheeto Benito? Hell no they didn't. So why should we have to pander to these people who clearly have disdain at my people's existence?

This statement as a minority reads as trickle down social justice.

I'm black well before I'm a Democrat.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164390: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:12:53 PM

edit: I'll get back to this later. Dwayne Johnson said he planned to run in the 2020 primaries, and Kayne also said he did but now he's apparently Trump's pal because.

[up] Meanwhile you'd prefer to see the country continue to balkanize ideologically until it literally balkanizes with massive bloodshed. Do you seriously believe that 25+ years of stagnant wages and declining standards of living among the American midddle class had no political impact whatsoever, and it's all just racism? That's a far more radical assertion than anything Sanders or I am saying.

edited 27th Dec '16 4:33:03 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#164391: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:15:44 PM

Not to move the goalposts, but that's not really evidence of the Democratic Party suggesting fielding a celebrity. Nor is it of course evidence of someone in this thread supporting it. I'd also note that the idea from both articles is coming from Michael Moore, who besides being kind of a crank is in the "Sanders wing" of the Party- so you are criticizing the wrong side of the Party here.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164392: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:16:34 PM

[up] Several celebrities (Kanye and Johnson off the top of my head) said they were interested in running for president now that Trump became president apparently through sheer force of celebrity, and assuming they make good on that and run in the primaries, the party might not be able to stop them.

edited 27th Dec '16 4:18:25 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#164393: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:18:06 PM

Maybe that's true. But that's not supporting your claim that the "big wigs" in the party or posters here are supporting the idea of a celebrity candidate as a means of challenging Trump. Which is the accusation you made.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#164394: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:18:22 PM

Ron Perlman has also declared his intent to run.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164395: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:19:43 PM

[up][up] I think the big whigs are thinking of the amount of money they'll be able to make under President Trump before anything else. Every man has his price, and Trump is shameless enough and fiscally irresponsible enough to match that for, if I'd have to guess about half of the democratic party. Okay maybe a quarter (the ones in red leaning states), but don't be surprised if democrats suddenly start singing Trump's tune after a quick chat and a pork filled bill directed at their interests.

edited 27th Dec '16 4:22:23 PM by CaptainCapsase

SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#164396: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:35:59 PM

@164,285: American politics run on Black-and-Grey Morality. Both parties are bad, but the Democrats are the lesser of two evils.

@164,323: "Rigged" is too strong a word, but the DNC did cooperate with the Clinton campaign to help them beat Sanders while pretending to be neutral. www.washingtonpost.com/the-fix/wp/2016/07/24/here-are-the-latest-most-damaging-things-in-the-dncs-leaked-emails/?utm_term=.58b621a5e24e

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#164397: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:37:25 PM

How are they the lesser of two evils? What makes them evil exactly?

edited 27th Dec '16 4:37:39 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#164398: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:39:53 PM

@Captain: At this point let them run and maybe let them win. As long as you aren't the kind of right wing Trump Pence and his lackeys are no celebrity could be any worse. If the choice is between Kayne West and Trump....Kanye 2020.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164399: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:40:35 PM

[up] Kanye supports Trump now because he has power, the man is pretty much as unprincipled as Trump himself, and has a background even less suited to the Presidency. If it gets to that point I'll feel compelled to vote third party, or just not vote.

edited 27th Dec '16 4:43:56 PM by CaptainCapsase

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#164400: Dec 27th 2016 at 4:47:37 PM

[up]Isn't that what part of what got us into this mess in the first place?


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