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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164326: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:03:13 PM

[up] I was arguing that what I fear would be (functionally) a centrist authoritarian regime using social justice rhetoric to justify its abuses of power. No ideology or concept is immune to authoritarianism, and since social justice is in vogue right now, that's where the Trumps of the left will sprout. Note that the democrats are already more or less a centrist party, and unashamedly so.

edited 27th Dec '16 12:04:21 PM by CaptainCapsase

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#164327: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:04:12 PM

Currently the Democrats are aghast, but not because they think that democracy failed, but because they think that democracy has been systematically undermined by the Republicans (they are right, btw). Hopefully this will eventually lead to the introduction of more checks and balances to avoid a disaster like this happening again.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164328: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:04:54 PM

[up] Look at the failure of other presidential democracies in Latin America, see how it compares to what's happening now in the United States, and say that again with a straight face.

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#164329: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:05:47 PM

And how many of those are we more or less entirely to blame for?

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164330: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:06:51 PM

[up] Some of them. There's a school of thought in political science, backed by game theory that suggests presidential democracies are inherently less stable than parliamentary systems. This is also backed by history; only two Presidential democracies, the United States and Chile have remained stable for more than a century. None have been stable for more than two.

Here's an article on the shortcomings of American democracy. One which predated Trump by quite a while.

"In the center, of course, it's an article of faith that when right and left talk like this they're simply both wrong. These are nothing but the overheated squeals of partisans and ideologues."

edited 27th Dec '16 12:11:06 PM by CaptainCapsase

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#164332: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:10:55 PM

Exactly because I have seen so many democracies slide back into what is basically a dictatorship I am so worried about what is currently happening in the US. Stuff like this doesn't happen from one day to another, it is a step by step process and the US government, especially the Republicans, have taken way too many steps in the wrong direction lately.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164333: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:20:17 PM

Indeed. My insistence that the democrats refuse to engage on the GOP's term is not out of some misguided adherence to principles, but rather the belief that it's too late to prevent the collapse of the American political system; all we can do is brace for impact, and try to ensure that the people who end up picking up the pieces are better equipped to revitalize the shattered institutions than is usually the case in the aftermath of a constitutional crisis.

edited 27th Dec '16 12:21:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#164334: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:20:27 PM

Republicans will probably attempt to use Gödel's Loophole at some point:

In summary, Gödel’s loophole is that the amendment procedures set forth in Article V self-apply to the constitutional statements in article V themselves, including the entrenchment clauses in article V. Furthermore, not only may Article V itself be amended, but it may also be amended in a downward direction (i.e., through an “anti-entrenchment” amendment making it easier to amend the Constitution). Lastly, the Gödelian problem of self-amendment or anti-entrenchment is unsolvable.

edited 27th Dec '16 12:30:56 PM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164335: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:23:46 PM

Either party could be capable of doing that if the polarization of the US population continues to escalate.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164336: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:24:40 PM

[up][up]Link is broken.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164337: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:25:48 PM

I have absolutely no sympathy for any Trump voter who is only now realizing that they just voted for the removal of some of the very same programs they relied on for their survival. Hope those coal workers who voted for Trump are happy that the removal of the ACA will grant generous tax breaks to millionaires.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#164338: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:29:15 PM

I'm torn between my gut feeling of "Look what you've subjected us all to, in your ignorance. STARVE" and my better judgement of "we should really be lynching the rich now instead of sneering at their poor suckers"

edited 27th Dec '16 12:29:30 PM by Lanceleoghauni

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#164339: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:31:14 PM

From the linked page (found through Google):

In summary, Gödel’s loophole is that the amendment procedures set forth in Article V self-apply to the constitutional statements in article V themselves, including the entrenchment clauses in article V. Furthermore, not only may Article V itself be amended, but it may also be amended in a downward direction (i.e., through an “anti-entrenchment” amendment making it easier to amend the Constitution). Lastly, the Gödelian problem of self-amendment or anti-entrenchment is unsolvable. In addition, the author identifies some “non-Gödelian” flaws or “design defects” in the Constitution and explains why most of these miscellaneous design defects are non-Gödelian or non-logical flaws."

Which is to say, Article 5:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

Can be amended so that its own boundaries and definitions, including State ratification, no longer apply.

Or so I read it.

It's been fun.
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164340: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:37:16 PM

Thanks you, also to Terminus for changing the link for a quote.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#164341: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:48:59 PM

To be fair the loophole isn't anything special, but it is a fundamental weakness in democratic institutions. Democracy is inherently self-dissolving, unless certain functions are determined by "eternity clauses" (i.e. parts that after being added cannot in no way or shape be changed).

edited 27th Dec '16 12:49:46 PM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#164342: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:54:43 PM

Can we take this as a sign of the Alt-right collapsing in on itself? I mean, I always knew it wouldn't have any long-term future in the modern America, but does this look like it will ever reverse itself?

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#164343: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:57:24 PM

[up][up][up][up] Problem with Godel's Loophole: Republicans do not have 2/3rds of the Senate and the House. They have 3/5ths of both at best. Even though Republicans might have 2/3rds of the State Legislatures, they would not be able to pass 3/4ths of all Legislatures once their Amendments are proposed.

@Alt-Right Breaking Down: That's a good thing. Even if Trump has 'aligned' himself with the movement, the fact that he's pissing them off so early is a good sign, and the fact that they are starting to snipe at each other over how extreme is too extreme is a good thing as well. Hopefully in 2 years, this Alt-Right movement (and perhaps even the Tea Party movement) simply breaks apart into small, squabbling factions that can't do anything at all, similar to the Jewish Revolters in Monty Pythons Life Of Brian (which was itself based on English Marxist-Socialist Parties).

edited 27th Dec '16 12:57:51 PM by DingoWalley1

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#164344: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:58:11 PM

Oh, I doubt it. The alt-right is a deep twisty hole of tangled hatred; it's not going to be going away anytime soon.

It's been fun.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#164345: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:58:29 PM

It's a bit soon to say they're collapsing. It's them running into a speed bump that's pretty minor in the big scheme of things. If that's enough to sink the movement, then the movement was never actually strong enough to be worth worrying about in the first place.

edited 27th Dec '16 12:59:12 PM by Gilphon

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#164346: Dec 27th 2016 at 12:58:51 PM

", what interests of Putin is Trump friendly toward besides not going to war with Russia? Isn't avoiding another pointless war a good thing?"

"The info in the e-mails is info the American people had every right to know, regardless of the motives of the people who released it."

I cannot belive people are saying this,

"I have absolutely no sympathy for any Trump voter who is only now realizing that they just voted for the removal of some of the very same programs they relied on for their survival. Hope those coal workers who voted for Trump are happy that the removal of the ACA will grant generous tax breaks to millionaires."

For me a latin american troper that is what piss me the most because again, we saw that here: the idea that inserting some bad idea isnt so bad because our leader will only use it wisely, if Trump manage to build a Wall or the Ban, I wont be surprise to see coment "But I saw many inocent muslim, this was suposed to be against terrorist, how this could be!" I have saw that answer plenty of times to asure themselve that Trump is not racist

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#164347: Dec 27th 2016 at 1:04:31 PM

I'm wondering if they'll return to their turn of the millennium level of irrelevance though.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#164348: Dec 27th 2016 at 1:44:00 PM

To be fair the loophole isn't anything special, but it is a fundamental weakness in democratic institutions. Democracy is inherently self-dissolving, unless certain functions are determined by "eternity clauses" (i.e. parts that after being added cannot in no way or shape be changed).
Even an "eternity clause" requires that the people that can enforce it actually care. Subvert the institutions or individuals that enforce them and they're not worth the ink it took to write them down.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#164349: Dec 27th 2016 at 1:52:55 PM

If they enforce their existence themselves you'd have a solution of a sort. Although then you'd probably have a country run by syndicates soon enough.

edited 27th Dec '16 1:53:34 PM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#164350: Dec 27th 2016 at 1:58:54 PM

@Trump saying 'Happy Hanukkah': I've never been so conflicted in my life.


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