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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#164176: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:25:45 PM

[up]It doesn't in the House. That's the point of a bicameral legislature. If you change that you might as well just have one giant legislature.

edit: Misguided as they might be it is still theoretically possible that we could wind up in a situation where liberals do stop giving a crap about rural people. If that happens they'd need some way of maintaining a voice.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:27:11 PM by Kostya

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164177: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:32:49 PM

Thing is, in the next few years, liberals are going to have to focus on themselves. They will be too busy defending social programs and civil rights to worry about what is happening to rural voters. Though I guess by defending the ACA, Social Security, and Medicare, liberals will still be indirectly helping many rural voters.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#164178: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:34:30 PM

As I elucidated in my last post, [1] the problem is not any one portion of the system, but the aggregate result of all of those systems together to sharply swing power into the hands of rural voters to an almost comical degree. And the possible counterbalances wind up stillborn on the floor of Congress because the Republicans are well aware almost any change will reduce their power somewhere.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:35:04 PM by ViperMagnum357

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#164179: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:34:53 PM

[up][up]In the next few years that will be true. In fifty? Who knows. Tyranny of the majority could be a legitimate problem. I'd rather not defang the smaller states to the point where they can't do anything.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:35:14 PM by Kostya

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#164180: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:38:04 PM

Right now we're facing very literal - and dire - tyranny of the minority. And we can't avoid dealing with that just because of the risk that the reverse could theoretically happen half a century down the line.note 

Several people have said that there should still be checks in place to ensure that smaller states and rural voters have a say. Nobody's saying we should screw them over. But the system as it currently stands is completely unacceptable and outdated, and may already have done irreparable harm to our nation and to the world.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#164181: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:39:49 PM

Another good reason why the electoral college should be abolished is one that's been pointed out multiple times: it reduces voter turnout because individual votes only count as much as the aggregate, at which point the states HAVE to pledge all their votes for the candidate that won.

This heavily discourages blue voters in red states (like the big cities in Texas for one) or red voters in blue states from casting votes because they don't feel their votes are individually meaningful.

With a direct popular vote that isn't the case anymore. Suddenly literally every single vote has the same power which would at least in theory increase political participation nationwide and would mean a lot more people are active participants in democracy. I find this a good outcome.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#164182: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:39:50 PM

I never said we shouldn't alter the system. I'm fully in favor of things like switching from EC to popular vote and overhauling our districting process for the House. I just object to altering how the Senate works. The Senate, from where I'm standing, is fine. It's the House and Presidency where the GOP has disproportionate power.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164183: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:43:19 PM

I'm going to temporarily shut off my more charitable and humane side to comment on the whole clusterfuck:

As things stand, our system gives a disproportionate amount of power to the votes of people who, for the most part, are poorly educated, brain damaged due to heavy metals in their water, brainwashed by fundamentalists, bigots, xenophobes, resentful of intellectuals, want things to be better but are too fucking lazy to actually make any changes in their lifestyle or behavior to make them better, and/or vote for a President based on whether they can grab a beer with them as opposed to any actual leadership qualifications.

Whew, glad I got that out of my system.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:43:57 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#164184: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:43:41 PM

I think there should probably still be something to give them SOME representation, without giving them as much power as they have now.
Well, then it sure is a good thing that, even without the Electoral College, they're still OVER represented by design in our government because of the legislature, whereby every state, whether it has 60,000 people (minimum for statehood) or 60,000,000 people has exactly two senators regardless of their population and at least one representative, which also gives small states disproportionate representation since there's also a cap on the size of the House (the sole representative of Wyoming represents fewer people than each of the 55 representatives of California, meaning that each voter in Wyoming has more say than their Californian counterparts).

edited 25th Dec '16 7:48:40 PM by Balmung

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#164185: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:46:17 PM

Honestly, I'm perfectly at ease with the prospect of the marginalization of drooling, rural reactionaries. These brainless troglodytes don't believe in evolution or climate change, think that coal, "clean" or otherwise, is a viable energy source, that LGBTQ people are subhuman, that Muslims need to be barcoded, and that Putin's Russia is a great place. Yes, they deserve a place in a democratic society, but a.) They're in the minority; and b.) Acquiescing to their whims will cause irreparable damage to humanity. By hook or by crook, they must be dragged kicking and screaming into the present and into the future because our society depends on it.

Whatever sympathy I had for them ended when Trump was elected.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:48:10 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#164186: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:47:25 PM

vote for a President based on whether they can grab a beer with them

...while ignoring the fact that he's the sort of guy who'll run up a huge tab, then stick you with the bill.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164187: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:48:55 PM

[up] I'd rather have a POTUS who would either discourage me from drinking too often or pay my tab for me while they go and do actually important shit.

Funny thing is, Trump isn't a guy who would have a beer with them because he's a teetotaller.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:49:41 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#164188: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:49:28 PM

And he'd probably be terrible company — Trump strikes me as a really boring man once you scratch off the cheap gold paint.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#164189: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:49:59 PM

I'd feel far more comfortable hanging out with Hillary than I would with Trump.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164190: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:50:15 PM

He's not particularly interesting even with the gilding.

[up] Same here.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:50:35 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#164191: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:50:51 PM

And the fact that you can't grab a beer with Trump. He doesn't drink alcohol. Ever. And Pence seems to be the type who randomly smacks into the very stupidest of Puritan values so he's be really weird to have a drink with.

[nja]'d

Trumps seems like he would either agree with anything you say or scream you down, and switches between the two at random.

...like that guy from Jupiter Ascending.

Hillary, on the other hand, has a genuinely interesting history and she seems like a really interesting person.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:52:51 PM by Zendervai

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164192: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:52:15 PM

[up] I suppose if you want a POTUS whom you can grab a Big Mac or a bucket of KFC with, he's your guy.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164194: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:53:15 PM

[up] Nope. His older bro died due to drinking too heavily, something which affected Donald a great deal in his youth. He hasn't drunk a drop since.

It's one of the only forms of genuine discipline and self-control Donald has ever shown.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:54:17 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#164195: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:54:13 PM

It's possible he does other stuff, though. Remember his constant sniffling during the debates? How else does he function on three hours of sleep a night?

edited 25th Dec '16 7:55:21 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#164196: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:54:50 PM

Wow, I didn't know about that. Well I guess we don't have to worry about alcohol making his judgement even worse.

edit: I don't really drink either. It's kind of weird to think about the fact that we actually have that in common.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:55:21 PM by Kostya

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164197: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:55:35 PM

[up] I kind of wish we could see him drunk. It might offer some more insight into his thought processes.

I know I get a lot more chatty when drunk. A lot more political too.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:56:05 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#164198: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:57:55 PM

I've heard that Trump is actually really charming one-on-one. The kind of guy you'd have a great time drinking with, and then convince you to pick up the bill before you realize what you've agreed to.

Although apparently he doesn't drink at all. Which I admit I find somewhat admirable, even if it does reveal another way in which his image differs from reality- he's not a guy you could grab a beer with because he doesn't drink beer.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:59:49 PM by Gilphon

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#164199: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:59:10 PM

He certainly has charisma. That's one compliment I will legitimately give him.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#164200: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:59:18 PM

As much as people complain about Hillary being fake or whatever I figure she would probably be an interesting person to speak to. It's rare for a woman in the US to be such a prominent political figure. She must have had an interesting life.


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