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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#164101: Dec 24th 2016 at 8:12:06 PM

I also see that post-hoc justification as elitist and flimsy anyways. The electors aren't some great wise elite who know better than the people, they're just as bound to being coerced or caught up in the would-be autocrat's wave as much as anyone else. Complaining about mob rule is fine and dandy but that's basically what democracy is. It's not exactly any worse than a system where the people's will is ignored outright.

In practice, the electors ignoring the will of the people or the system and voting for someone else would greatly destabilize the political climate, and they know it too. Which makes them much less likely to do it. Really it falls apart any way you look at it.

There MIGHT be some legitimate discussion to be had about how a direct popular vote win would encourage candidates to focus mostly on the populous areas, but surely there can be measures to try and make sure that the interests of the rural population are taken into consideration without the EC.

edited 24th Dec '16 8:14:08 PM by Draghinazzo

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#164102: Dec 24th 2016 at 9:07:22 PM

For the sake of completeness, I feel like I should mention how we do it up here: The Prime Minister isn't directly elected, by rather chosen by whichever party has the most seats in parliament. So parliamentary election essentially are the Prime Minister's election as well.

Of course, gerrymandering being a thing means this probably wouldn't be a good idea in the US, but gerrymandering really shouldn't have been allowed to become a thing in the first place.

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#164103: Dec 25th 2016 at 1:44:16 AM

Merry Christmas!!!!!

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#164104: Dec 25th 2016 at 1:49:46 AM

*grumbles*

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164105: Dec 25th 2016 at 1:53:37 AM

On the "you'd dislike it if getting rid of the EC bit us in the ass in the future", no, I wouldn't. I would be severely disappointed in the United States for actually voting for a fucking nazi, but that would be a democratic choice, which I can (begrudgingly) accept. A system that fucks over a winner by over 3 million votes is not a democratic system in my opinion, and for that reason I find it hard to see someone who "wins" like that as a legitimate president, even if it had been Hillary.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#164107: Dec 25th 2016 at 6:36:27 AM

Re: #164074:

I understand the logic, but to me it sounds like you're saying you can't accept the winner of the system the country had been using to select its leaders almost as long as it's been a country. That part I can't quite follow. It may not be "Democratic", but it's the system that's elected every other president we've had, good and bad alike. To me, saying it's hard to call the winner of the electoral college vote legitimate is to cast similar doubt on every President we've ever had.

edited 25th Dec '16 6:39:07 AM by sgamer82

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#164108: Dec 25th 2016 at 6:44:56 AM

We've never had a President-elect as horrifying as Donald Trump before.

#NotMyPresident

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#164109: Dec 25th 2016 at 6:49:48 AM

But IFwanderer was saying he'd feel the same way if Clinton won Electoral over Popular because the vote wasn't a democratic result, even though the win would've been by the same method every other President had ever won by. I can't see how winning by the system we've used from the get-go is illegitimate. Especially when a Clinton win in those conditions would've also been fulfilling the College's stated purpose note 

That said, I'm aware I was probably reading more into it with my "doubting every President" line then Wanderer intended.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:02:08 AM by sgamer82

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#164110: Dec 25th 2016 at 6:59:25 AM

[up][up]Yet.

There was Andrew Jackson.

Inter arma enim silent leges
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164111: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:05:34 AM

[up] And he managed it without access to WM Ds too.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:05:43 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#164112: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:37:13 AM

It's worth noting that while the EC is stupid it typically matched the popular vote results. While it is undemocratic in theory it wasn't in practice for most of American history.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164113: Dec 25th 2016 at 7:51:58 AM

Jackson was kind of nuts (okay very nuts), but given the era he wasn't nearly as out there as Trump. He also put his money where his mouth was so to speak, having actually been to war, fought in many duels, and nearly caned a would be assassin to death to match his tough-talking.

edited 25th Dec '16 7:52:12 AM by CaptainCapsase

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164114: Dec 25th 2016 at 8:03:37 AM

But I Fwanderer was saying he'd feel the same way if Clinton won Electoral over Popular because the vote wasn't a democratic result

Yes, I would. I consider the EC fundamentally illegitimate, it having been in place for a long time doesn't make it any less so in my eyes. If the person who gets the electoral college also wins the popular vote, then I have no problem seeing them as legitimate presidents. But for Adams, Hayes, Harrison, the first term of W. Bush, and now Trump it's hard for me to see them as legitimate presidents even if that's the system you use.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#164115: Dec 25th 2016 at 8:10:29 AM

"Legitimate" is a bit of a loaded term in this context. If there is a system in place that was agreed upon by the majority of the people, that system has functioned for a reasonable length of time and provided for peaceful transitions of power, and the system has not broken down into totalitarianism or anarchy or whatever, then it is legitimate for all intents and purposes.

Someone winning the Electoral College vote after losing the popular vote is a possibility intentionally built into our election system; it follows all of the established rules, and is therefore "legitimate". It may not be "fair", but that wasn't ever promised to anyone.

If Clinton had won the EC but lost the popular vote... well, that would have been mathematically all but impossible given how our national voting demographics work out, but if it had happened, she'd have had a very shaky mandate going into office, with a lot of Democrats very uncomfortable about the deal. We wouldn't concede to Donald Trump, though.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#164116: Dec 25th 2016 at 8:49:11 AM

[up] That's more or less my thinking. I'm trying not to get into "that's how we've always done it", but... well, it is. More importantly, it's how we've done it and only very recently has it ever had drawbacks significant enough to seriously warrant talk to abolish it (though I imagine there's always been one group or another claiming it should). There's only been dissonance between the Electoral and Popular vote, what, five or six times counting this election? Given nearly fifty presidents and even more elections that means it's happened about a tenth of the time, at best. The only reason I'd think there's major issue now is that the Electoral/Popular dissonance has happened twice in living memory, both times were in favor of a specific party, and the second lost the total popular vote by a huge margin.

Democratic =/= Legitimate. So long as the bulk of the population is fine with the system, then it's as legitimate as anything else. From what I've gathered, abolishing the Electoral College is still a fairly minority viewpoint, which is itself difficult to really gauge to my mind because such sentiments are way too easily tainted by the "my guy didn't win" blues.

In other words, while some, like Wanderer, are against the College on principle and would be that way no matter what, how many do you think are only complaining now because of Trump's victory? Had Clinton won (regardless of popular vote) how many of those same people would be fine? How many Conservatives would be the ones railing against the college instead?

Yeah, as was suggested before, it's easy to get into hypotheticals, but it's still worth considering and it's the main reason I don't think I could support anything so drastic as removing or bypassing the College altogether. Not without at least attempting to reform it or something in that vein first. The failure of its stated purpose note  in this election is the primary reason I would consider arguments to full on get rid of it to be significant. At the very least, it should never be looked at during an election year.

edited 25th Dec '16 8:59:04 AM by sgamer82

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164117: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:04:02 AM

I started thinking something wasn't right with the EC back in 2000. That was the first time I realized the EC and the popular vote might not mesh. But that was overshadowed by the Florida recount stuff and I forgot. When Obama won the EC and popular vote in his elections, I started to think it was a fluke.

Then came this election.

Yeah...

Disgusted, but not surprised
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164118: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:42:45 AM

That's more or less my thinking. I'm trying not to get into "that's how we've always done it", but... well, it is. More importantly, it's how we've done it and only very recently has it ever had drawbacks significant enough to seriously warrant talk to abolish it (though I imagine there's always been one group or another claiming it should).
Recently meaning since 1824?

Democratic =/= Legitimate. So long as the bulk of the population is fine with the system, then it's as legitimate as anything else.
How many people understand the system well enough?

From what I've gathered, abolishing the Electoral College is still a fairly minority viewpoint, which is itself difficult to really gauge to my mind because such sentiments are way too easily tainted by the "my guy didn't win" blues.

According to this 2007 poll (PDF link), when it was made, 73% of independents, 78% of Democrats and 60% of Republicans were in favor of changing to direct popular vote (question 22, right at the bottom of page 13 of the document and beginning of page 14) when the question was asked. It would be interesting to see how the number has changes.

Given nearly fifty presidents and even more elections that means it's happened about a tenth of the time, at best.

Getting back to this, can you prove demographic trends wont make the rate of this happening increase? and what if after 2020 the republicans gerrymander the house in a way that gives their states more EC weight? (moving as many house districts as possible without making it too obvious to states where they have favorable demographic trends, for example taking from Illinois to give them to South Carolina and gerrymandering the new districts to favor them).

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#164119: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:46:07 AM

So long as the bulk of the population is fine with the system, then it's as legitimate as anything else. From what I've gathered, abolishing the Electoral College is still a fairly minority viewpoint
You're glossing over one crucial fact that I myself was not aware of before seeing it explained here in this thread: Apparently, most voters are more or less completely ignorant of how the EC works, or are even unaware that it even exists, with the ignorance largely persisting up to a few weeks before Election Day. And somehow the next election in four years sees similarly large numbers of US voters expressing that surprise yet again (though how many of them are the same ones from four years ago is unknown to me).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#164120: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:50:31 AM

...The RNC just released a statement comparing Trump to Jesus and referring to him as our "new King."

Replace "King" with "Fuhrer" and "Jesus" with "the other guy" and I'd agree.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#164121: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:51:03 AM

I'm also one of the people who's been against the Electoral College since I first heard of it in 2000, and was still against it when Obama was elected. I share the concerns of other people that a pure popular vote may lead to over-favoring densely populated regions without some sort of checks, but otherwise the electoral college is an outdated system tied to an outdated way of life.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#164122: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:53:58 AM

[up][up] ... Words truly fail me at the moment.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#164123: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:56:36 AM

[up][up][up] ...Oh, for Christ's sake... (pun unintentional)

edited 25th Dec '16 9:56:50 AM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#164124: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:57:08 AM

Typical GOP pandering to their Religious Right voting bloc.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#164125: Dec 25th 2016 at 9:57:38 AM

Similarly, for as long as I've known about it (at least since 2000), I've also been against the EC the whole time.


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