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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#164076: Dec 24th 2016 at 4:10:34 PM

How many conflicts of interest does Trump want? Apparently not all of them.

Trump says he will dissolve foundation amid NY investigation:

http://bigstory.ap.org/4d495d29465d4e63b06a3da7af34fd1b&utm_source=android_app&utm_medium=copy_to_clipboard&utm_campaign=share

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164077: Dec 24th 2016 at 4:15:35 PM

[up][up][up]Picking up from that: U Statersnote , get ready for the government outright fabricating the numbers if they make them look bad.

edited 24th Dec '16 4:17:44 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#164078: Dec 24th 2016 at 4:24:44 PM

Well, Breitbart was willing to fudge data from a broadcast to indicate the planet is getting colder, to the point where the tv anchor straight up made a video telling them to fuck off and explaining to people the actual facts and context of what she was saying.

Making up fake numbers is just another step up from that, and I wouldn't expect better from the Republicans honestly.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#164079: Dec 24th 2016 at 4:30:28 PM

And more important: all those things dosent save him if him embarras himself as have do so far in twitter, that have hurt Maduro reputation beyond all the control he have so far of the media.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#164080: Dec 24th 2016 at 4:47:12 PM

Trump can fake the numbers on the news but he can't fake the reality around people, they can claim unemployment going down and jobs coming back all they like, the rural middle-class aren't going to be fooled because they're going to see the reality around them.

It's like claiming the drinking want in Flint is fixed, they might fool some people but those with poisoned water are still going to know that it's bullshit.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164081: Dec 24th 2016 at 4:49:08 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah, but better start warning ASAP

[up][up] You're telling me the guy who does all of those TV thingies threatening everybody is not a parody of Maduro? Well, I mean, we do have former president Fernández de Kirchner rambling on TV about "the rich people who use cocaine, the good stuff, while pontifying to the poor", so...

[up] We thought the same about the Kirchner's lies...

Also, it's only us southamericans (and now Silas) in here right now. did everybody else go celebrate the Saturnalia, Festivus or Hanukkah? (I don't think there's any other holiday around this date, please remind me if I forgot one)

edited 24th Dec '16 4:50:17 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#164082: Dec 24th 2016 at 4:58:15 PM

I live in Arizona, USA, and I celebrated Hanukkah on the 21st.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#164083: Dec 24th 2016 at 5:06:58 PM

"'Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake the world if he has a dream and no facts to cloud his mind." -Imperial Thought of the Day.

Who knew, Warhamer manage to get Trump and is suporter mentality in few worlds......

Why is that creeping me out?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#164084: Dec 24th 2016 at 5:08:52 PM

I'm an atheist but we're having dinner with family friends. As far asTrump goes versus populists in Latin America, there's a difference in scale which will change the dynamics of the Trump administration compared to those regimes. The resources Trump will have access to and the talent pool dwarfs that of pretty much any historical example outside of the 1930s.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#164085: Dec 24th 2016 at 5:28:50 PM

[up][up][up]Oh, I'm Jewish too (altough I'm so out of touch with the religious stuff I might as well say I am an atheist, I guess).

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#164086: Dec 24th 2016 at 5:35:31 PM

[up]While this is better for the religion thread, I have noted that jewish is waaaaay better with atheist that christianity or Islam, which for me is a plus

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#164087: Dec 24th 2016 at 5:46:14 PM

Yeah, I don't actually believe in YHVH, I'm just biologically Hebrew and I appreciate the culture, and celebrating a holiday is a good excuse to get together with the whole family once a year.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#164089: Dec 24th 2016 at 6:24:13 PM

So, we're all worried about how the combination of the Electoral College and targeted voter suppression might screw us over going forward, like it did here. However, one lane of attack that I think should receive a lot of focus over the next 2-4 years is the National Popular Vote act - a compact that's slowly gaining traction. If it were adopted by enough states (states with a combined EC vote value of at least 270), then it would guarantee that those states' electoral votes would go to the candidate who won the popular vote, hopefully preventing another "she wins by three million, he gets to be Fuhrer" situation.

So far it's eleven states and 165 votes towards its goal, having started in 2006. The bad news is that the GOP control the majority of the state legislatures in the US, and they have precious little motivation to do anything about the electoral college - rigging the game in their favor suits them right down to the ground. But it's still the closest we're going to get to abolishing the EC without actually abolishing the EC, and it's bound to be easier than ratifying an actual Constitutional amendment.

Also - a video from the ACLU on voter suppression, with comedian Lewis Black. It's not hugely deep, but it points out a few of the GOP's scummier tactics, like interfering with people's ability to vote in advancenote  and absurdly complex voter ID laws. Some of which require money - so you effectively have to pay to be able to vote. Which does a good job of gatekeeping the poor.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#164090: Dec 24th 2016 at 6:41:14 PM

If it were adopted by enough states (states with a combined EC vote value of at least 270), then it would guarantee that those states' electoral votes would go to the candidate who won the popular vote, hopefully preventing another "she wins by three million, he gets to be Fuhrer" situation.
I ask this knowing that most people here would love to see just this happen, but wouldn't enough stats adopting that act essentially negate the Electoral College? Other than the fact this is more likely to succeed than actively abolishing what is, like it or not, a fundamental part of our voting process, it seems to basically be the same thing.

edited 24th Dec '16 6:43:03 PM by sgamer82

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#164092: Dec 24th 2016 at 6:46:32 PM

I'll be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about introducing laws essentially designed to do an end run around an existing process. I know we don't like the College, and I personally am not fond of the fact that Donald Trump won within those rules, but this feels too much like the Republicans draining the power from the Democrat governor in North Carolina, a reactive short-term solution with the potential to bite us in the rear one day.

I think part of why this sort of thing bugs me is the thought that, were the situation reversed and Trump won the popular vote while losing the Electoral, most of the people right here in this thread who want the College gone would be singing its praises.

edited 24th Dec '16 6:46:58 PM by sgamer82

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#164093: Dec 24th 2016 at 6:59:07 PM

Right now, the EC is slanting the playing field in the GOP's favor and giving political power to literal Nazis, so I am fully in support of any and all legal measures that can eliminate or circumvent it.

It's easy to play a game of "well what if" hypotheticals, but I'm more concerned with what's actually happening. Right now, the RepubliKKKans and their views are in the numerical minority (may it stay that way), and they're abusing the Electoral College - itself already a racist and outdated system - to ascend to power. The hell with that, I say.

I might consider praising the EC if it had done its actual job and the electors had refused to vote for Trump - because that literally is supposed to be the point of the electors. But they didn't, and elected a grossly incompetent Russian puppet. So we can add Alexander Hamilton to the every-growing list of historical figures who are spinning in their graves right now.

edited 24th Dec '16 7:00:56 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#164094: Dec 24th 2016 at 7:32:46 PM

I ask this knowing that most people here would love to see just this happen, but wouldn't enough stats adopting that act essentially negate the Electoral College? Other than the fact this is more likely to succeed than actively abolishing what is, like it or not, a fundamental part of our voting process, it seems to basically be the same thing.
That is exactly the point.

It's also worth noting that the Constitution says nothing about how the states should decide how to distribute their electoral votes or even that they need to hold an election. There Ain't No Rule against ignoring the local popular vote and giving the votes to the winner of the national popular vote. Or against automatically giving all the votes to the tallest candidate. Or against the legislature saying damn the votes, our electors are going to Bush (almost happened in Florida in 2000 before the SCOTUS ended the recount)

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#164095: Dec 24th 2016 at 7:35:57 PM

Hell the original intent was for electors to be people of importance themselves, they'd run without committing to any particular presidential candidate and simply decide once the college met I believe.

Also the electors refusing to vote Trump wouldn't be them doing their job, the system was designed to give rural, white racists extra power, electing Trump is very much what the college was made for.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#164096: Dec 24th 2016 at 7:37:47 PM

I would most certainly not be singing the EC's praises if the situation was reversed. I'd be pleased with the result, certainly, but I'd also be sympathetic to the Trump supporters who would probably be (rightfully) angry and (accurately) feel like the system had just cheated them. I'd be concerned that it would be further stroking the anti-establishment sentiment that got Trump as far as he got, would lead to another Trump running in 2020. I'd also be hopeful that it could balloon into a movement to get rid of the damn thing.

Because, y'know, it's not like the Electoral College actually serves a useful purpose.

edited 24th Dec '16 7:43:45 PM by Gilphon

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#164097: Dec 24th 2016 at 7:40:25 PM

[up][up] Eh, yes and no. Obviously that's what it actually does - give all the power to rural white racists in former slave-owning states, while stripping away the power of city dwellers and minorities. (Which is why the system needs to go already.) But the EC also had the nominal purpose of acting as a firewall against the rise of an unqualified candidate, a dictator, or a foreign power attempting to install "a creature of their own." Trump is all three. So ironically, it's the reason we have Trump, and it's also supposed to be designed specifically to stop a Trump from ever happening.

Still, that nominal purpose is irrelevant now, because it's utterly failed at that responsibility and as such has no redeeming value remaining. I don't care how much people may insist that it serves to balance the power between city folk and rural dwellers - all it does is imbalance it in the opposite direction, and apparently fuck over the entire planet in so doing.

edited 24th Dec '16 7:42:01 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#164098: Dec 24th 2016 at 7:49:37 PM

That "nominal purpose" has always seemed to be a post-fact justification for a system that hat was designed to benefit slavers, what was the intent of the system, once that stopped being an okay justification people came up with the "check against a popularist foreign puppet" line.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#164099: Dec 24th 2016 at 7:56:51 PM

I think part of why this sort of thing bugs me is the thought that, were the situation reversed and Trump won the popular vote while losing the Electoral, most of the people right here in this thread who want the College gone would be singing its praises.

I think most of us would be happy with the fact that Trump isn't president, but worried about what it might mean down the line and deeply disconcerted about what Trump winning the popular vote says about the country. It would have been something of a Pyrrhic Victory, since for all we knew someone worse and more intelligent than Trump would have come in 2020 and blown Hillary away. She would have been guaranteed to be very unpopular being elected under those circumstances. It would have pretty much validated what Trump was claiming, that the system was rigged against him. Nobody would have wanted Hillary to win that way even if it was better than Trump being in charge.

I mean, you're always going to be sad when a horrible candidate gets into office, yes, but if the system works by electing the person who wins the popular vote then the victory is absolutely the will of the people, so that makes the victory somewhat easier to swallow. But in cases like this, the candidate is both catastrophically awful AND he manages to not even win via the popular vote but due to a bunch of archaic bullshit.

edited 24th Dec '16 8:07:30 PM by Draghinazzo

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#164100: Dec 24th 2016 at 8:05:36 PM

[up][up] Sure, I'm not disagreeing with you. The Electoral College is complete bullshit and, as a certain orange someone once ironically proclaimed, a disaster for democracy. Whatever ostensible purpose it was supposed to serve has long since disintegrated, and now it only serves to imbalance the democratic rights of voters.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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