TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

randomdude4 Since: May, 2011
#163051: Dec 17th 2016 at 12:50:47 PM

Just as he can bring in sources that support it, I can find sources against it. Here's one to start. Frankly I don't care if you find my objection to it questionable. It's not like I haven't thought about it before from all angles, and I know how I stand on it. You - some random person on the internet - aren't going to change my mind.

edited 17th Dec '16 12:52:34 PM by randomdude4

"Can't make an omelette without breaking some children." -Bur
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#163052: Dec 17th 2016 at 12:56:30 PM

That's not a source, it's an opinion piece by a woman who mistakes her personal experience as universal. Not all prostitution is sexual exploitation of minors, but because that was her experience, it's how she views prostitution. If you want to fight anecdotes with anecdotes, there are many women who have had a positive experience with prostitution.

The difference is that sexual exploitation of minors is a crime regardless of the legalities of prostitition.

If prostitution is criminalized, a 12-year-old forced to engage in it will be punished by law, and so will a 24-year-old who made an informed choice for herself. If decriminalized, the 12-year-old can seek legal protection and her victimizers punished, while the 24-year-old is not accosted by law for her own choices.

Criminalization of prostitution hurts women, full stop.

edited 17th Dec '16 12:59:16 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#163053: Dec 17th 2016 at 1:00:32 PM

What moral reasons to be against prostitution do you mean exactly? I mean, either it's forced, in which case criminalizing prostitutes is just beyond the pale. Or it is voluntrary. In which case it is an action that is otherwise neither illegal nor immoral, done for money. Or in other words just another job in the service sector.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#163054: Dec 17th 2016 at 1:06:46 PM

See, my impression is that California has not decriminalized prostitution.

Rather - see what I said before about "bad joke"? Apparently, the Golden State considers any sexual activity involving minors as a crime. Which would make about half of its adolescent population criminals if memory serves. That bad idea carried over into prostitution law, which considers being an underage prostitute a crime just like it does for the "customer". Until this law change, which legalizes the "being" part.

Full legalization means that customers of adult prostitutes are not criminals, either (nobody wants legal underage prostitution, I hope).

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#163055: Dec 17th 2016 at 1:14:09 PM

@ randomdude: And why should your morality apply? There is no reason to keep these archaic and puritan laws in place that do nothing but victimize people who, due to economics forced into place, fell into the world's oldest profession.

I am so very glad that California is leading the fight against the Fuhrer (I refuse to call him the President). I am very proud of my state for doing this. Flawed as we may be, this state is the best chance for those looking to escape the worst of the Fuhrer's dictates.

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#163056: Dec 17th 2016 at 1:18:46 PM

[up]Prostitution can't be the oldest profession. There must be something it can be traded for first. just bugs me

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#163057: Dec 17th 2016 at 1:25:48 PM

I guess the older profession is the hunter. But prostitution comes close.

Anyway, prostitution is actually legal in Germany. Prostitutes even pay taxes. Does it undermine the criminal side of the business? Not really, but I do think that it makes the work of the police slightly easier. Personally I have a hard time that a woman would actually choose this particular profession, if for no other reason than it being a dangerous one, but in the end, it is their body and their choice...once they are a legal adult.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#163058: Dec 17th 2016 at 2:50:42 PM

In Saarland we have actually a bit of issues with that because of the French doing border hopping to get laid.

"You can reply to this Message!"
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#163059: Dec 17th 2016 at 2:51:33 PM

Ugh. While I get what they are trying to do with legalizing prostitution, I can't say I approve of it.

It hasn't be legalized. California's just not punishing prostitutes only people who seek prostitutes out since most prostitutes are only doing sex work out of desperation.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#163060: Dec 17th 2016 at 3:43:20 PM

Some women choose to be porn stars, and being a legally-protected prostitute is like being a porn star, but a lot less work (since you have to do a lot of positioning for the camera's convenience in porn compared to actual sex).

The real nastiness of the profession is what surrounds it: fear of the police, of johns taking advantage of you because they know you can't turn to the law for help, and of pimps running a protection racket and abusing you because again, you need protection from the law, as well as the lack of regulation making you a target for disease and the potential for psychotically dangerous johns.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#163061: Dec 17th 2016 at 3:45:46 PM

There are also men who enjoy being "gigolos".

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#163062: Dec 17th 2016 at 3:52:42 PM

Reposting my previous statement, since it got buried:

See, my impression is that California has not decriminalized prostitution.

Rather - see what I said before about "bad joke"? Apparently, the Golden State considers any sexual activity involving minors as a crime. Which would make about half of its adolescent population criminals if memory serves. That bad idea carried over into prostitution law, which considers being an underage prostitute a crime just like it does for the "customer". Until this law change, which legalizes the "being" part.

Full legalization means that customers of adult prostitutes are not criminals, either (nobody wants legal underage prostitution, I hope).

The scope of the law change is much narrower.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#163063: Dec 17th 2016 at 4:44:19 PM

(Voluntary) Prostitution is only immoral if you consider sex to be immoral, and that is an intensely YMMV opinion.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#163064: Dec 17th 2016 at 4:45:32 PM

You call me immoral, a dangerous disgrace...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#163065: Dec 17th 2016 at 4:48:34 PM

All this talk of sex and prostitutes, now I got this song stuck in my head.

Inter arma enim silent leges
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#163066: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:21:56 PM

(Voluntary) Prostitution is only immoral if you consider sex to be immoral, and that is an intensely YMMV opinion.

Uh, no. You can consider prostitution to be inherently exploitative and therefore immoral, without thinking sex is bad. Alternately one could also think that sex is a special act and that doing it for cash inherently ruins it. Or any number of other opinions. I've met some people, for instance, who believe that all systems of employment contain an element of coercion to them that cannot be easily removed and that while that's awkward enough when dealing with someone selling their labour, it becomes so much worse when dealing with someone who is selling sex, creating scenarios where wage disputes or asking someone to pick up an extra shift when they don't want to, or what have you become tantamount to rape apologia.

Me personally, I lean towards a combination of the above, and I don't have a lot of respect for people who chose to be prostitutes (being forced into it, either at gunpoint or by economic factors is different) or for those who patronize them (side note since this should be obvious but people often miss it anyway when I say this—I can respect other things about that person but not that decision). Luckily, however, I don't have to respect a choice to believe it should be legal—after all, I don't have much respect for people who post drunken videos of themselves on Facebook, but I don't think they belong in jail.

edited 17th Dec '16 5:22:48 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#163067: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:25:00 PM

Trump's supporters are going to kill him. I don't think he realizes the Pandora's Box that he's opened.

His audience is so fucking confused. They don't know whether to cheer or boo. Is vicious good? Bad? Is the wall good? bad? Isn't locking up Clinton good? You can hear the utter confusion, their dear leader is not making it clear what they should think. Even I'm confused. Is he implying he said that all as a joke and they're morons for believing him? That's what he makes it seem like.

lol

edited 17th Dec '16 5:26:13 PM by MadSkillz

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#163068: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:30:15 PM

"aw look at the little voters, such good voters, do you want a treat? Do you want a treat you poor, gullible little sots?"

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#163069: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:34:30 PM

Alternately one could also think that sex is a special act and that doing it for cash inherently ruins it.

That's... a question of taste, not morality. And it only affects those engaging in it. Employment being inherently exploitative is a better point. In sex you need a way to bail out, other work doesn't require.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who chose to be prostitutes (being forced into it, either at gunpoint or by economic factors is different) or for those who patronize them
Isn't losing respect for them for choosing, it patronizing? You think you know better than them that they're getting exploited. Or why do you lose respect exactly?

[up][up]Trump, actually telling it like it is.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#163070: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:37:01 PM

I think he's trying to imply the wall and jailing Hilary was their idea- so that by not doing those particular crazy things, he's not breaking his promises. 'I never wanted to do those things; some of my crazier supporters just suggested them in the heat of the moment'.

So it's his usual reviving history move, like how he decided to claim he didn't perpetuate birtherism and never supported the Iraq war. He never changes his mind, the idea that he ever held a position other than his current one is nothing more than a media distortion.

TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#163071: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:39:57 PM

[up] So, how long before Trump says that we have always been at war with Eastasia/Eurasia?

edited 17th Dec '16 5:40:27 PM by TrashJack

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
DreadKing Since: Oct, 2015
#163072: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:40:19 PM

I was under the impression that this site was a place to discuss recurring media devices, not political topics so I was surprised to find a thread such as this.

Anyways, with all the apparently recent talk about prostitution, as someone who hails from Nevada, a state with legal prostitution, I can confirm that the topic is far from black and white.

edited 17th Dec '16 5:42:18 PM by DreadKing

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#163073: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:44:49 PM

I know at least a couple of women who entered prostitution because they simply liked sex and reasoned they might be paid for it as well.

Anyways, I'd rather go after someone who wants to be there rather than being forced to be there.

Inter arma enim silent leges
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#163074: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:46:34 PM

[up][up][up] That poor man they're going to eat him alive! Oceans rise, empires fall, next to Washington, they all look small. All alone, watch them run; they will tear each other into pieces... Jesus Christ, this will be fun!

Da da da dat da dat da da da da ya da
Da da da dat dat da ya daaaaa!
Hahahahahahahahaha

“President Donald Trump”
Good Luck

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#163075: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:50:48 PM

I like the way an associate of mine once put it: prostitution is, at heart, the selling of one's body for money. But what form of employment isn't?

If you're a typist, she explained, then you're selling your fingers. If you're a construction worker, you're selling your muscles. An analyst? Your brain. Why is selling one's body only wrong when it's your genitalia?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

Total posts: 417,856
Top