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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#162926: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:15:54 PM

To be concerned with what has happened, yes. A healthy level of concern is warranted, regardless of who is elected. I think however you are asking the wrong question. It is not, "what reasons are there for me to be hopeful?", but rather "what can I do for my state to give it the hope it needs?".

You are a member of a polity, one of a largest in terms of territory and with a high degree of military capability. You have a formalized constitution that posits a number of legal protections on you. The structure of the state is such that it does not easily permit any organ or institution to acquire so much relative power that it can overthrow the current representative regime. You, as an individual, have the right and duty to step up and become a citizen. You have access to tools and resources unknown to any past generation. The early Roman Republic was faced with invasions, barbarians sacking its city, tribes and states around it that wished to see its destruction. Your republic will survive, I guarantee it.

But it needs you. It needs you and your fellow citizens to be virtuous. The best counter-balance to a government or a parliament is not the judiciary, but the entire body of citizens, informed, willing and virtuous. So be hopeful not for your own sake, but for the sake of your fellow citizens. Your country is aching to have you join it.

The act of voting is unsufficient, go beyond that and be a citizen. There is no title more honorable and greater than that.

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#162927: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:17:10 PM

If it's any consolation you guys are in a much better position to recover from this compared to some other countries because you have a strong history of democracy.

It won't be easy certainly but there's no guarantee that this will be an eternal state of affairs either.

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#162928: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:19:21 PM

Y'all are being pretty darn presumptuous if you think that my being angry/concerned means that I'm sitting on my ass and can't possibly be doing my bit to help. Anger and despair are very reasonable reactions to what's happening in the world right now. I really don't want to play the "You exhibit human emotions, you lose" game.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound aggressive, and I appreciate your responses. It's just that all of this is incredibly upsetting and I don't think I can be faulted for being upset.

edited 16th Dec '16 3:27:26 PM by ThriceCharming

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#162929: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:32:37 PM

When that emotion is expressed in a way that appears to concede defeat, we cannot be faulted for thinking that's what you're doing. It's kind of unfair to expect us to assume anything from anything other than what you write here. We can't know what you're doing; we can't know what anyone else is doing, really, in this thread. Plus, you literally asked for a reason to believe things are getting better, and we gave them to you. Kind of not fair to get mad when we give you direct answers to that question.

And again, we've had a lot of doom and gloom in this thread and it tends to bog the thread down unhealthily.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#162930: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:35:18 PM

[up][up]You did say we didn't know what you were doing, so we can't assume anything one way or the other.

edited 16th Dec '16 3:35:42 PM by sgamer82

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#162931: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:37:59 PM

[up][up] I'm not mad about those answers. I already said I appreciated them.

I see how my words made it sound like I was admitting defeat. Like hell I'm going to do that. This country isn't perfect but it doesn't belong to white supremacists, robber barons, or Vladimir Putin, and I'm going to do everything in my limited power to prevent things from getting worse.

But it really does feel like we lost a battle today, and expecting GOP electors to suddenly grow a conscience and cast a faithless vote against Trump on Monday (which I had faintly hoped for) seems more foolish than ever. I'm allowed to be sad about that.

edited 16th Dec '16 3:42:28 PM by ThriceCharming

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#162932: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:40:14 PM

You are, but just like any hope, now that it's clear it won't be happening, it's time to suit up and get ready to fight.

It's been fun.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#162933: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:41:52 PM

Well, I strongly urge you, no, I beg you, to take whatever action you can, both for your sakes and mine. I fear for the lives of my family. I fear for the future.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#162934: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:45:04 PM

Battles are won or lost. Even when won, they can be costly. The struggle for human progress always leaves casualties unfortunately. The struggle itself is meaningful because it pulls us closer towards perfection. Every step taken has either been a caress or a terrible blow to the human race as a whole. Look towards winning the war, which is what truly matters.

Be prepared to have to suffer indignities from those lacking a moral character. But always keep your head held high and never bend the knee. Your dignity and self-worth as a citizen and a human being come first.

edited 16th Dec '16 3:48:16 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#162935: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:46:33 PM

I don't live in the US but I'm pretty afraid that we might be at the twilight of liberal democracy.

My only consolation is that the pendulum swings and broadly speaking no regime maintains power indefinitely, provided people are fighting.

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#162936: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:48:30 PM

Me too, TheHandle.

As for suiting up and getting ready to fight, how does one do that, exactly? How can an average chump like me make a difference? Part of the reason this is so distressing is that I want to defend the values I believe in but feel powerless to do so. I made some small donations to the ACLU (because I'm a starving English major and can't afford to part with much), but realistically, I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#162937: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:50:53 PM

Trump's response to the hacks so far is basically that they were a good thing because they revealed the DNC had given Clinton debate questions ahead of time.

Nevermind that isn't illegal anyway, it's not even true.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#162938: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:52:01 PM

I'm in the same position, myself. I feel bad for slinging around big dramatic words when I know there isn't likely to be too much I can do - I'm an unemployed ex-student living in New England, and as important as volunteer jobs are, they don't pay the rent.

I guess all we can do is the things that are doable for us. Keep an eye out for people being treated poorly and help them. Give money or your time where you can afford to. Make calls to representatives and senators, and turn out to vote.

It's been fun.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#162939: Dec 16th 2016 at 3:59:38 PM

Even for those of us in safe states it's important to stay active. We saw how just a few thousand votes could flip states we counted on to be dependently blue. Don't get complacent. My entire family voted for Trump in California. In a part of the state that went for Clinton anyway. People will oppose you from anywhere, so keep up vigilance.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#162940: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:00:02 PM

[up][up]WE ARE POWERLESS, WE ARE POWERLESS!

Find ways to protest. Don't just donate money. Become an activist. Risk jail and bodily harm, even. Do you think Civil Rights were won with strongly worded letters? Do you think your country was founded on those?

edited 16th Dec '16 4:03:30 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#162941: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:01:45 PM
Thumped: Extreme positions are not tolerated here. We don't care if they're sincere or you're just trolling. Either way, the forums don't need this sort of thing.
"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#162942: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:03:12 PM

Again I have to said: Trump have a phyrric victory at best and it show bigly, he is NOT going to get better with the american public any time soon and is inestable way of being is going to harm the republican more than anything.

and yes, as a latino I will said you guy have way to fight trump: here in my country the executive branch just take away our hability to do just that in front of damn eyes, for all thing bad I will said, YOU CAN FIGHT which is more we have here.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#162943: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:16:07 PM

Agreed with Unknowing, you guys are still very capable of opposing Trump, all you need is to make it a priority.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#162944: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:19:33 PM

About Obama. Given the fact the guy has been a civil rights lawyer, a constitutional law professor, a senator and a president, he's got a good idea on what places and roles in society create the best opportunity for doing your bit for your country.

Of all the options I just listed there, being a president is going to be the most restrictive, least flexible, roles to have.

All talk of subverting democracy and illegal third terms aside, Obama probably has a very good idea about what his most useful contribution to society can be going forward. In the coming years, having people who know how to fight for civil rights and constitutional law are going to be very important.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#162945: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:38:06 PM

I'll be looking forward to Obama truly going all out.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#162946: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:39:16 PM

He kinda gave us a sneak peek when he called out people being against big government only when it helps black and brown people.

I imagine he's only going to get more real from there.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#162947: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:45:21 PM

Meant what i said before. Another example would be Sherman's March to the Sea. We need to take the fight to the fascists and collapse their worlds around their hateful little heads, leave them with nothing but their bitterness against a world which rejected them and whooped their neo-nazi asses.

Again, not calling for violence, just gauging the level of intensity that the opponents of the new fascism need to maintain for the next four years, fires hot enough to burn fascism and racism to the ground and destroy the poisonous worlds that these people occupy.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#162948: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:48:08 PM

Maybe if you used examples that didn't involve the destruction of entire cities, bombings and military actions which did not make a distinction between believers and innocents because that kind of intensity is incapable of making such distinction, of separating the guilty and the innocent and punishing only the guilty.

We should be working to prevent suffering, not taking an action guaranteed to ensure suffering, so your examples seem poorly chosen.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#162949: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:55:57 PM

[up][up]Yeah, but calm down a bit anyways?

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#162950: Dec 16th 2016 at 4:58:45 PM

[up]x 5 Same here. Even though Obama's no longer going to be our POTUS, in a way, he's still going to be the leader of our country, taking the charge and showing us the way to salvation. Hell, even no longer being the POTUS may be a blessing in disguise, as he can finally take the kids gloves off and go to town in ways he can only do without any official authority. We're getting Obama unleaded, and it's going to be GLORIOUS to watch.

edited 16th Dec '16 4:58:58 PM by kkhohoho


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