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AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#162476: Dec 15th 2016 at 7:55:42 AM

Gold.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#162477: Dec 15th 2016 at 8:25:05 AM

It was some season finale...I think it was the one of season three, yes. Thing is the show was right about how easily you can manipulate the masses. They did it in a couple of episodes, but in this case the parallels are now striking...with the difference that there the "good guys" did the manipulation for the "greater good", so I didn't really question it, especially since it was essentially counter propaganda. But the idea of a society in which this is our only discourse is terrifying. That would actually made a great basic idea for an dystopia....

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#162478: Dec 15th 2016 at 8:25:52 AM

Tom Wheeler is resigning today.

Meaning that Trump will have a 2-1 majority on the FCC.

Net Neutrality is pretty much done.

New Survey coming this weekend!
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#162479: Dec 15th 2016 at 8:46:06 AM

[up] How much is Net Neutrality similar to ACTA and the derivatives back in a day?

As in, if it's infringing on the web, odds are the protests will be overwhelming. Even Alt-Right - of the basement-dwelling, animu-watching kind - might join those.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#162480: Dec 15th 2016 at 8:55:14 AM

So the Internet's gonna be gentrified.

SMH.

Disgusted, but not surprised
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162481: Dec 15th 2016 at 8:56:47 AM

It was gonna happen eventually anyway.

Well enjoy it and mooch while it lasts folks.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#162483: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:04:30 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] Source on that please?

Forgive me for saying such a thing here but if a civil war erupts in the US, who'd be the most likely to take up arms against the GOP-dominated government?

[nja]

edited 15th Dec '16 9:05:01 AM by HallowHawk

Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#162484: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:06:14 AM

[up]x5

As in, if it's infringing on the web, odds are the protests will be overwhelming. Even Alt-Right - of the basement-dwelling, animu-watching kind - might join those.

You say that like it would make any sort of difference. The useful idiots that helped Der Trumpenfuhrer get elected have outlived their usefulness to him now.

edited 15th Dec '16 9:07:50 AM by Reflextion

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162485: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:07:31 AM

[up][up][up]

Wow...if we can take down Paul Ryan that would be awesome, even if Trump became president. I just hate that bug-eyed creep.

[up][up]

If you look at history and see the great actors before and after the event you will find many people who were unexceptional suddenly becoming major players. So who knows.

edited 15th Dec '16 9:07:48 AM by JulianLapostat

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#162486: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:08:53 AM

Comment deleted as soon as Julian edited his.

[up][up]

If you look at history and see the great actors before and after the event you will find many people who were unexceptional suddenly becoming major players. So who knows.

I was referring to groups. Other than elements in the military and probably Black Lives Matter that is.

edited 15th Dec '16 9:20:57 AM by HallowHawk

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#162487: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:09:27 AM

Out of morbid curiosity, I checked the comments section over at the Daily Caller on an article about Putin having a hand in hacking the election. 99% of the responses?

FAKE NEWS

FAKE NEWS

FAKE NEWS

FAKE NEWS

FAKE NEWS

Then again it's a conservative site so what did I expect.

edited 15th Dec '16 9:19:43 AM by speedyboris

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#162488: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:14:44 AM

[up]x5 It's hard to say at the moment because a lot depends on the precise context. Just because the government is Go P led doesn't mean it'll be traditionally leftest groups that take up arms.

I would actually say that there's a real possibility that the first groups to rise up could be radical conservative groups, who are angry at Trump for not going far enough.

Utimately of course any civil war in the United States is going to be over very quickly unless a sizeable percentage of the military sides against the government.

edited 15th Dec '16 9:15:25 AM by Falrinn

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#162489: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:19:06 AM

@Paul Ryan Super PAC and Russian Hacking: I don't think you can blame a politician for what their Super PAC does, unless you can prove that they ordered them to steal or use the information.

Either way, this is exactly why we need to get rid of PAC's and Super PAC's: They're easily corruptible and can easily corrupt politicians.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#162490: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:29:47 AM

@Silasw

You beat me to it. This. So very much. To act as if terming something else a genocide cheapens the Holocaust is to cheapen the Holocaust far worse than anything else ever could—while simultaneously excusing or whitewashing every other instance of mass killing by a government. If one follows that argument to its logical conclusion there have been no other genocides this century—not the Armenian genocide, not Rwanda, not the Yugoslav breakdown, not the Guatemalan army's campaign against the Maya, none.

@Julian

No, this is where the conversation goes every time someone tries to whitewash a Communist dictatorship.

But as I said, you would have to find actual legal evidence that fits the criteria of the 1948 Definition

First off, congrats on trying to argue semantics in a discussion of mass murder. Secondly, you know why the 1948 definition is as specific as it is? Because Stalin had veto power over it. Early drafts included the destruction of political groups, for instance, but Stalin insisted on its removal so as to ensure that his own crimes did not fall into the same category as Hitler's.

I will once again reiterate—deliberately starving a person is murder, which makes deliberately starving multiple people mass murder, which makes deliberately starving a racial, ethnic, or religious group a genocide (and deliberately starving political enemies a politicide, etc).

I mean calling the destruction and cleansing of Native Americans as genocide has to account for first the fact that many of them died by disease.

First off, no it doesn't. Genocide is the deliberate destruction, in whole or in part of a group. Which means that even if most of a group died of disease, you can still be charged with genocide for the ones you shot, starved, etc. The colonial armies, and particularly the Spanish and American ones regularly engaged in acts of ethnic cleansing against the native population, and once you have enough of those, it crosses the line into genocide. I'll note that in some places, like Guatemala, these practices never really ended—the Guatemalan Army's campaign against the Maya and their descendants is very much a continuation of Spanish colonial policy in the region.

Secondly, do you know why disease had such a devastating impact, especially in the Spanish colonies? Because the populace had been enslaved and subsequently sent to be worked to death. This brought them into close proximity to the whites and the diseases that the whites carried, enabling ease of infection. And yes, at a certain point this does become evidence of genocidal intent, because when your workers keep dying from illness when they're near you and you keep enslaving new people to bring near you, you are deliberately facilitating the spread of disease. That's without, of course, getting into the working conditions that Native slaves were forced to labour under, particularly in, once again, the Spanish colonies, where gold mining, pearl diving, and the horror show that was silver smelting, all took monstrous tolls on the indigenous populace. When you mix silver with liquid mercury and then force someone to walk on it, you are killing them and you know it.

This isn't even touching the subject of native on native instances of ethnic cleansing or genocide, of which there are certainly examples (see the Comanche vs the Apache for one good example), and which were, in many cases supported, overtly or covertly, by the whites (witness the Dutch and the English backing of the Iroquois policy of ethnic cleansing in the Beaver Wars).

The Trail of Tears was more or less land-grabbing and ethnic cleansing, and displacement of land but I have not studied that in detail yet.

Then don't try to use it as a part of your argument for God's sake. It's a clear act of ethnic cleansing at best, a precursor to the tactics that Enver, Cemal, and Talaat deployed in the Armenian Genocide at worst.

They didn't just promote terrible political philosophies they acted on it, and collaborated with Nazis and victimized Jews
it certainly damages the memory of the Holocaust by equating some of the killers of Jews with their victims.
Preserving the memory of the victims and preventing any commemoration or honor for its perpetrators, enablers, directors and commissioners.

This is like using the Rwandan genocide to justify, whitewash, or ignore Belgian colonial policy. Or to ignore the genocide in Burundi that happened two decades prior. That the Hutu slaughtered 800 000 Tutsi does not change the fact that they were victims of the Belgians, nor does it erase the reality that right next door in Burundi, the Tutsi killed hundreds of thousands of Hutu in 1972.

People can be victim and perpetrator both. The Iroquois were robbed of their lands at gunpoint by the Americans. They also perpetrated a campaign of ethnic cleansing against their Huron neighbours. The Comanche were likewise dispossessed by the Americans...which does not change the fact that they were a slaver society that had massacred the Apache in their hundreds. The Aztecs ran a brutal imperial project...and were also victims of Spanish colonialism. This happens all the time and to downplay atrocity simply because some of the victims participated in atrocities themselves is to display a real lack of nuance. When a serial killer says he committed his crimes because he was raped as a child, the appropriate response is not to declare that he wasn't raped.

That's without, of course, getting into the fact that the majority of the worst victims of the Holodomor had nothing to do with the Holocaust on account of being dead at the time. You're trying to disregard their suffering not because of what they did, but because some of their descendants have used Stalin's crimes to try and excuse their own, and that's unworthy of you. Nobody likes the Ukrainian far-right, but pretending away the Holodomor isn't the right way to fight them. I don't like Israel's Palestinian policy, but I don't deny the Holocaust.

To bring this all back around to the topic of the thread, we've dogpiled people in the past for justifying the likes of Pinochet in order to paint American foreign policy in a more positive light. Well I'll be damned if we let anyone get in the habit of justifying the crimes of Communist regimes in order to paint American foreign policy in a worse light. You don't like the people Obama supported in Ukraine. Neither do I. You want America to play nicer with Russia? I disagree but it's a point that can be reasonably argued. You think American culture has been irreparably damaged by its history of anti-Communism? Go write a Master's thesis or a Ph D dissertation on it; I'm sure it will be brilliant. But stop pretending away the crimes of historical tyrants in order to make your case. It's unnecessary, it's disrespectful to the victims, and it does not make your point any stronger.

edited 15th Dec '16 9:35:30 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#162491: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:33:27 AM

The Project On Government Oversight: NSA Watchdog Removed for Whistleblower Retaliation

Top NSA Watchdog Who Insisted Snowden Should Have Come to Him Receives Termination Notice for Retaliating Against a Whistleblower

Until just a few months ago, George Ellard occupied a position of trust as top watchdog of the National Security Agency, America’s principal collector of signals intelligence. Ellard was not only NSA’s Inspector General, but an outspoken critic of Edward Snowden, the former contract employee who leaked hundreds of thousands of classified emails to publicly expose the agency’s domestic surveillance program. Snowden claimed, among other things, that his concerns about NSA’s domestic eavesdropping were ignored by the agency, and that he feared retaliation. Ellard publicly argued in 2014 that Snowden could have safely reported the allegations of NSA’s domestic surveillance directly to him.

Then last May, after eight months of inquiry and deliberation, a high-level Intelligence Community panel found that Ellard himself had previously retaliated against an NSA whistleblower, sources tell the Project On Government Oversight. Informed of that finding, NSA’s Director, Admiral Michael Rogers, promptly issued Ellard a notice of proposed termination, although Ellard apparently remains an agency employee while on administrative leave, pending a possible response to his appeal from Secretary of Defense Ash Carter.

The closely held but unclassified finding against Ellard is not public. It was reached by following new whistleblower protections set forth by President Obama in an executive order, Presidential Policy Directive 19. (A President Trump could, in theory, eliminate the order.) Following PPD-19 procedures, a first-ever External Review Panel (ERP) composed of three of the most experienced watchdogs in the US government was convened to examine the issue. The trio — IG’s of the Justice Department, Treasury, and CIA – overturned an earlier finding of the Department of Defense IG, which investigated Ellard but was unable to substantiate his alleged retaliation.

“The finding against Ellard is extraordinary and unprecedented,” notes Stephen Aftergood, Director of the Secrecy Program at the Federation of American Scientists. “This is the first real test drive for a new process of protecting intelligence whistleblowers. Until now, they’ve been at the mercy of their own agencies, and dependent on the whims of their superiors. This process is supposed to provide them security and a procedural foothold.”

“The case, which is still in progress, offers hopeful signs that the new framework may be working,” Aftergood added.

POGO learned of the decision against Ellard from sources who spoke on condition of anonymity. The information was later confirmed by government officials. POGO has been told that mention of the finding will appear in a semiannual report (SAR) of the Intelligence Community IG (ICIG) that should be released in the near future. It makes brief mention of the case without citing Ellard by name.

Neither Ellard, his lawyer, nor the NSA provided any comment, despite POGO’s numerous attempts to offer them the opportunity.

POGO also reached out to the NSA employee and victim of Ellard’s retaliation, posing a detailed series of questions about what happened through an official intermediary. POGO has been told that the whistleblower composed answers to at least some of those queries, and was seeking NSA approval before releasing them. So far, there is no sign that such approval has been granted.

The DODIG told POGO it would have no immediate comment.

THE RETALIATOR

Ellard, a Yale-trained lawyer and former prosecutor with a doctorate in philosophy, was for nine years the top oversight official keeping tabs on NSA, an agency fraught with controversy over its handling of Edward Snowden and other prominent whistleblowers. Ellard in particular chose to enter that debate along with other critics who faulted Snowden for his alleged unwillingness to report his concerns about NSA domestic surveillance through channels inside the agency set up for that purpose.

IG Ellard’s criticism of Snowden first stirred controversy during a 2014 panel discussion at Georgetown University Law Center in Washington. “Snowden could have come to me,” Ellard declared, arguing that the leaker, now a fugitive in Russia, would have received the same protections as other NSA employees, who file some one thousand reports annually to the agency’s hotline. “We have surprising success in resolving the complaints that are brought to us,” Ellard said, adding, “Perhaps it’s the case that we could have shown, we could have explained to Mr. Snowden his misperceptions, his lack of understanding of what we do.”

Snowden himself has explicitly contended that he feared retaliation and that he had no other option but to go public if he wished to expose NSA domestic eavesdropping. Among the cases of retaliation that Snowden has pointed to is that of former senior NSA employee Thomas Drake, who after reporting alleged wrongdoing through authorized channels, was arrested at dawn by the FBI, stripped of his security clearance, charged with crimes under the Espionage Act, all of which were later dropped, leaving him to find work in an Apple store. Snowden’s related contention is that in his own case, he did, in fact, report his concerns in emails to NSA superiors at the time, a contention which NBC has said it verified.

Now, given the official finding that Ellard retaliated against an NSA whistleblower, the credibility of Ellard’s argument that Snowden could have come to him is gravely undermined. More generally, there are few if any incentives for intelligence whistleblowers to report problems through designated authorities when the IG of NSA is found to have retaliated against such an individual.

PPD-19 IS WORKING

Meanwhile, the ICIG’s handling of what began as a whistleblower complaint against Ellard sends an encouraging signal to those who may report wrongdoing at 17 US intelligence agencies and all executive-branch federal offices where employees hold security clearances, according to the ICIG, which oversees the directive.

Obama proposed the PPD-19 process in 2012, though implementation did not begin until in mid-2013. Some 18 appeals for review of a retaliation charge, or the convening of an ERP , have made their way to the office of Intelligence Community IG Charles Mc Cullough, III, who oversees the directive.

Dan Meyer, the ICIG’s Executive Director for Intelligence Community Whistleblower & Source Protection told POGO, “The purpose of PPD-19 is to offer intelligence and national security whistleblowers an effective and safe means to report problems without being forced to confront the fear of reprisal.”

As such, the Ellard case is groundbreaking not only because it represents the most extensive use of PPD-19 procedures to date, but also because of Ellard’s high-ranking position in a national security environment where few, if any top officials are known to have been held accountable. A variety of reprisal accusations have been made against senior officials over the years. Rightly or wrongly, very few have been ever been substantiated.

Under the PPD-19 procedures used in Ellard’s case, the allegations were first reviewed by the Do D IG, but that office was unable to substantiate retaliation. The victim who had made the allegations then appealed to ICIG Mc Cullough. He, in turn, decided to convene a first-ever high-ranking, three-person ERP to further examine the matter.

Mc Cullough would normally have chaired the group, but opted to recuse himself, mindful of a conflict of interest. Indeed, Mc Cullough previously worked at the NSA IG himself as its chief of investigations. Ellard was his boss.

Filling in for Mc Cullough as chairman of the panel was DOJ IG Michael Horowitz, who selected the CIA and Treasury watchdogs to serve with him.

According to ERP procedures, the panel had the option to approve the earlier Do D IG findings, which did not substantiate retaliation; to ask the Do D IG to redo all or part of its probe; or to redo the investigation itself, using the record of the previous probe as a baseline.

The ERP opted to conduct its own inquiry, including witness interviews and the evaluation of evidence.

Once the panel found that Ellard had retaliated against a whistleblower, the finding went to Admiral Michael Rogers who, as NSA director, had 90 days to take action on two fronts: what remedy to offer the victim of retaliation, and what discipline to impose on Ellard, the retaliator.

POGO has been unable to determine exactly what remedy Rogers prescribed, if any, for the victim, but he promptly moved against Ellard. The highly unusual outcome marks the first time a PPD-19 review panel has ever been convened and the first time that a prior investigation was reversed under the process set forth in the directive.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#162492: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:48:12 AM

@Amber I'd note that while Stalin was responsible for the removal of political genocide as a catagory of genocide that wouldn't actually apply in this case, what we're talking about is more genocide by gross negligence, which as our three examples shows is something the UK, US and USSR had all done, no wonder it wasn't even considered for the definition.

edited 15th Dec '16 9:48:56 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#162493: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:52:09 AM

You say that like it would make any sort of difference. The useful idiots that helped Der Trumpenfuhrer get elected have outlived their usefulness to him now.

I imagine they could be a thorn in his side yet, one way or another. Cold comfort, given that Trump has two countries threatening him with nuclear weapons already and he's not even officially appointed President yet.

@Net Neutrality: So is there something that can be done now? I keep hearing something about Democrats putting out a "filbuster", but I'm unfamiliar with the term to know what this would mean.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#162494: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:53:35 AM

[up]

So is there something that can be done now? I keep hearing something about Democrats putting out a "filbuster", but I'm unfamiliar with the term to know what this would mean.

You could go to freepress.net and donate.

Anyways, back on-topic. When in January next year is Trump sworn in?

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#162495: Dec 15th 2016 at 9:57:16 AM

Republican voters have apparently warmed to Russia, Russian President Vladimir Putin, and Wiki Leaks in the wake of the 2016 presidential election, according to data from a new You Gov/Economist poll. President-elect Donald Trump's electoral win was followed by a dramatic spike in favorability for Putin by GOP participants in the poll. Democratic participants, meanwhile, now disapprove of him more than they did before November 8. In July 2014, Republicans viewed Putin with a -66 net favorability; and now, in December 2016, they view him with only a -10 negative favorability.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/12/14/gop-favorability-of-putin-spiked-during-election.html

Got to hand it to Putin. Everyone thought his ass was grass in '14 when he took Crimea and got sanctioned to hell and back by the west.

Talk about playing the long con.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#162496: Dec 15th 2016 at 10:01:19 AM

[up][up]The 20th.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162497: Dec 15th 2016 at 10:03:46 AM

To act as if terming something else a genocide cheapens the Holocaust is to cheapen the Holocaust far worse than anything else ever could

That's an extremely disingenuous and stupid thing to say when you have David Irving still breathing in the world, when you have Holocaust denial still active on the conspiracy boards, when you have an anti-semite in the White House, and when the daughter of a man who called the Holocaust a minor event in World War II polling well in the French Elections and when Stepan Effing Bandera has a major boulevard named after him in Ukraine in 2016.

Yet precisely delimiting and clarifying legal terms and protecting it from misuse of cultural memory cheapens the Holocaust more than anything. I am within my rights to expect an apology for this, either on this board or the PM.

When a serial killer says he committed his crimes because he was raped as a child, the appropriate response is not to declare that he wasn't raped.

That's not what I am saying. I am saying that just because he had a Freudian Excuse that doesn't mean he was as much as a victim as the people he killed. I am against irresponsible genocide discourse because it means that anybody can absolve themselves of their actions by claiming to be victims and all that victim-nationality does (which after all preceded World War II) is serve as grounds for new atrocities and that has happened countless times in history.

What you are saying is that the rape-victim turned serial killer is as much a victim and should be commemorated in the same breath as his victims. I am okay with the serial killer being cited as a rape-victim (though I think other Rape Victims would balk at being in said company since they didn't kill people serially) but I disagree with any equivalent victim status between serial killer and victim just because the serial killer was raped.

I disagree with that entirely and I consider that immoral and disgusting. Not everyone who got screwed over by USSR joined the Nazis, not everyone decided that killing and blaming Jews was payback. That some did is an action they must be judged for and held accountable.

That's all I am going to respond from your post, if anything else comes to mind for me to reply I will send PM. You still have not provided any sources or books for your arguments and assertions while I have done so.

edited 15th Dec '16 10:05:01 AM by JulianLapostat

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#162498: Dec 15th 2016 at 10:07:14 AM

Repealing the ACA would cause chaos and suffering for millions directly, and many more indirectly. So of course, the Republicans will do it anyway.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/15/politics/obamacare-repeal-burwell/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#162499: Dec 15th 2016 at 10:16:38 AM

Julian people provide sources for facts, I fail to see what facts amber needs to source. His argument can stand or fall on its own without needing sources.

Also you seem to be ignoring the fact that nobody has actually said that Stalin's victimisation of the Ukrainian prople justifies nazi collaboration ot hero worshiping Nazi collaborators.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#162500: Dec 15th 2016 at 10:30:27 AM

A member of the North Carolina legislature is saying on Reddit that the Republicans in state legislature just used a special session to strip as much power as possible from the governor elect. @Le Garcon, you may need to pay attention here and sorry for being the bringer of bad news.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV

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