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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162451: Dec 14th 2016 at 10:00:42 PM

I think there needs to be some amount of competition for the DNC Chair to at least give a sense of choice and options and paint the DNC as truly representative and not some shady cabal.

I mean that's the misperception people have and this Perez V Ellison thing will clear that image.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#162452: Dec 14th 2016 at 10:17:04 PM

North Carolina G.O.P. Moves to Curb Power of New Democratic Governor

Sorry, bruhs. But at this point, it's clear that the GOP are, fundamentally, at their core, an outright evil organization.

I dare anyone to provide a counterexample.

New Survey coming this weekend!
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162453: Dec 14th 2016 at 10:25:51 PM

Talk about nuclear option yikes...It's pre-impeachment.

Under one of the most sweeping Republican bills, which lawmakers will vote on beginning Thursday, county election boards would have two members from each party, rather than the current three-member boards with a majority from the governor’s party.

The state Board of Elections would also become a bipartisan body, with equal numbers from each party, instead of being controlled by the governor. The governor’s election, which was decided by only about 10,300 votes, or 0.2 percent, put a spotlight on North Carolina’s election boards as they examined voting challenges in dozens of counties brought by Mc Crory supporters, who claimed dead people and felons had voted.

The challenges stretched on for nearly a month, and it was not until last week that Mr. Mc Crory conceded.

On paper, bi-partisan and equal represenation of each party in these positions sounds okay-ish. But I guess this will lead to gridlock and I assume some NC Dems are more conservative and can be swayed and cajoled to the GOP and what they want is to prevent a Liberal Governor from effectively halting the Conservative Tide and rolling back the voting suppressions.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#162454: Dec 14th 2016 at 10:28:38 PM

John McCain, Mitt Romney and Rob Portman, to name the first three examples that come to mind.

But anyway, it seems to me that would create a terrible precedent, one that's abusable as heck by both parties. So going through with that would be a terrible idea. Especially since they just pissed off the voter base by dragging out a pointless recount.

edited 14th Dec '16 10:29:18 PM by Gilphon

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162455: Dec 14th 2016 at 10:31:10 PM

Mittens Romney groveled before Trump in 2012 when he asked his Orangeness for an endorsement despite Trump being a Birther...he played a dangerous move to legitimize him with the party base.

Then there's the whole 47% speech and the opposition to LGBT rights.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#162456: Dec 14th 2016 at 10:39:29 PM

At this point, I don't feel too inclined to give any GOP member with name recognition too much benefit of the doubt. Any time they present a bill or an opinion that sounds reasonable at first, I'm always going to be looking for the catch.

edited 14th Dec '16 10:40:05 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#162457: Dec 14th 2016 at 10:41:35 PM

Stalin apologia. Really? This is where the conversation has gone?

saying the Ukrainian famine is a genocide

It was deliberate mass murder. Stalin didn't just prevent the Ukrainians from growing sufficient food, he confiscated food from starving people and then, to put the icing on the cake, criminalized starving. He had an order passed that declared that anyone who was starving was an enemy of the state who was deliberately harming themselves in order to discredit the revolution.

If you withhold food from a starving man, you're guilty of murder. If you withhold food from hundreds, thousands, or millions of starving men, you're guilty of mass murder. And if those people all happen to fall into a particular ethnicity, you may well be guilty of genocide (or politicide if they share political beliefs, etc). Stalin knew what would happen, and he either a) did not care or b) wanted it to happen. Either way, upwards of five million people starved because Stalin did not give a damn about their lives and that is absolutely a crime.

As for comparisons to the Trail of Tears and Irish Potato Famine, the Potato Famine wasn't deliberate, but the sheer scale of criminal incompetence demonstrated by the British government of the era would see them prosecuted for gross neglect and multiple counts of negligent homicide in the modern era. The Trail of Tears is, if not genocidal, than certainly an act of ethnic cleansing, one of many conducted by the American military and government over the course of its interactions with the Natives. So yeah, even if we accepted that the Holodomor should be compared to those and not the Holocaust you'd still be accepting that the Ukrainians have every reason to loathe Russia.

And of course, the reality is that the Holodomor was deliberate, and did result in the destruction of vast swathes of an ethnic group. And since the dictionary definition of genocide is the deliberate destruction in whole or in part of an ethnic or religious group, that meets the standard.

I've said it before and I'll say it again—that America did terrible, and unjustifiable things in the name of fighting Communism does not change the reality that the Communist regimes were terrible states. In this case, I will likewise add that the fact that Ukrainians have at times used their victimization under Stalin to promote terrible political philosophies does not change the reality that they were victimized under Stalin.

edited 14th Dec '16 10:43:47 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#162458: Dec 14th 2016 at 11:01:33 PM

So Arpaio is reviving the birther crap again.

Ugh, is he THAT desperate to stay relevant? Maybe he's looking for a post in Trump's administration. Or maybe he's doing this as a favor to distract the media from Trump's latest shenanigans in exchange for a pardon in the future.

How the fuck did President Obama put up with this shit for eight years so gracefully?

edited 14th Dec '16 11:02:49 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#162459: Dec 14th 2016 at 11:04:22 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#162460: Dec 14th 2016 at 11:04:31 PM

He's a better human being than I am. I would've called out motherfuckers by name.

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#162461: Dec 14th 2016 at 11:05:46 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
Disgusted, but not surprised
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162462: Dec 14th 2016 at 11:17:52 PM

Really? This is where the conversation has gone?

It's where you are taking the conversation and I am not going to fall into that trap. I discussed a broad range of issues dealing with America's Cold War Propaganda and the ramifications of that on its foreign policy in Eastern Europe and its domestic consequences, among which is the Prague Declaration and you are deliberately picking the most controversial part. I have cited legal arguments such as the 1948 Genocide Convention at the United Nations. I say we keep emotions out of it or at least keep such exchanges for PM.

My sources for this is the works of Matt Tauger, J. Arch Getty, Sheila Fitzpatrick and William Schabas (not a historian but an Israeli lawyer, one of the foremost scholars on genocide law in the world and an expert on the 1948 Convention) as far as general debates on famine goes, Mr. Amartya Sen who insists that famine usually comes from natural factors but can be solved if proper information and conditions are clearly communicated. These are my sources, please cite yours, so if I am wrong I at least know where I can correct myself.

The Trail of Tears is, if not genocidal, than certainly an act of ethnic cleansing, one of many conducted by the American military and government over the course of its interactions with the Natives. So yeah, even if we accepted that the Holodomor should be compared to those and not the Holocaust you'd still be accepting that the Ukrainians have every reason to loathe Russia.

If the Trail of Tears, the Irish Potato famine are accepted as genocides legally, then yes the 1934 Famine is also genocide. That much I agree on. But as I said, you would have to find actual legal evidence that fits the criteria of the 1948 Definition, and it's extremely hard to do that for events that far back and for famines which originate as natural phenomenon (as did the 1934 Famine which in any case affected the whole Soviet Union and not just Ukraine) it's harder to do. The reasons the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust is shocking and exceptional is that we have actual evidence and information for this, especially the Holocaust. I mean not every pogrom against the Jews historically (committed by every nation in Europe at some point) is genocidal...except in the sense that the lack of punishment, the tacit enabling of these crimes, and indifference, ultimately did lead to the Holocaust. We distinguish between attacks and massacres on some Jews versus the event that targeted all Jews, we differentiate mass sudden spontaneous violence as against deliberate, cold-blooded co-ordinated attack.

I mean calling the destruction and cleansing of Native Americans as genocide has to account for first the fact that many of them died by disease. There is some evidence of intent, which in the case of the English general Jeffrey Amherst who apparently gave smallpox blankets to tribes in Canada shows some deliberation but we don't know if this was one action done by one crazy and heartless Englishman or an overall policy by the English and Colonial administration. The Trail of Tears was more or less land-grabbing and ethnic cleansing, and displacement of land but I have not studied that in detail yet.

In this case, I will likewise add that the fact that Ukrainians have at times used their victimization under Stalin to promote terrible political philosophies does not change the reality that they were victimized under Stalin.

They didn't just promote terrible political philosophies they acted on it, and collaborated with Nazis and victimized Jews (which Stalin himself did in the early 50s in the Doctor's Plot incidentally), they massacred them and so on. There's no complicated and simple national identity to be formed without accounting for that and it is up to these nations to do that, which most of them are not showing signs of doing. America has itself failed to learn the lessons of accounting for its own national past is naturally not capable of setting the right example. The fact that neo-fascists and the eastern european alt-right is coming to power in these regions on America's watch and with its indifference is no way to remember the victims of Stalin's purges or the 1934 Famine and it certainly damages the memory of the Holocaust by equating some of the killers of Jews with their victims. That's my main concern by the way, as the creator and originator of The Holocaust page, not Stalin or USSR. Preserving the memory of the victims and preventing any commemoration or honor for its perpetrators, enablers, directors and commissioners.

edited 14th Dec '16 11:24:36 PM by JulianLapostat

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#162463: Dec 15th 2016 at 12:22:13 AM

Do you not consider it insulting to the victims of the Holocaust that you feel the only way to preserve the Holocaust's place as a great evil is to downplay other evils?

It's entirely possible to acknowledge things like the Ukrainian famine as horrible acts of ethnic cleansing/genocide (technically legal definition notwithstanding) and still acknowledge that the Holocaust was an act of supreme evil.

This isn't a zero-sum game where by admitting that one act was evil you somehow reduce to aparent evilness of another act, we're all (I hope) smart enough here to acknowledge multiples evil of varying horrificness.

edited 15th Dec '16 12:22:39 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162464: Dec 15th 2016 at 1:04:38 AM

[up] I replied by PM to that post.

[up][up]

I think we were spoiled by the past eight years of being led by a relatively decent and actually competent human being.

Those days are gone.

If you read TNC we should have expected this....progress always greets backlash and this cycle has been the main continuity in American history...Reconstruction then Jim Crow...New Deal and then Red Scare-Mccarthyism...The '60s and Reaganism...Obama and Trump.

edited 15th Dec '16 1:05:09 AM by JulianLapostat

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#162465: Dec 15th 2016 at 2:08:22 AM

This song seems strangely appropriate.

Proglottid Since: Mar, 2010
#162466: Dec 15th 2016 at 5:46:22 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162467: Dec 15th 2016 at 5:57:26 AM

Trump did throw a baby out of one of his rallies for crying...so there is precedent.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#162468: Dec 15th 2016 at 6:23:35 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#162469: Dec 15th 2016 at 6:30:22 AM

I just remembered an old Leverage episode...was it in season 3? Anyway, the "con" in question was that a fascist-leaning millionaire wants to take over a little state. So in order to prevent that from happening, the team has to free the opposition while - and here is the important part - manipulating the election itself. They basically do it by spreading all kind of falsehoods about the millionaire, including one story in which Eliot claims that the guy is mistreating cute little puppies.....

The episode is no longer as funny as it used to be.....

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#162470: Dec 15th 2016 at 6:40:17 AM

Looks like a "Funny Aneurysm" Moment or Harsher in Hindsight entry.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#162471: Dec 15th 2016 at 6:44:39 AM

[up][up]Wasn't that the season 3 finale?

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#162472: Dec 15th 2016 at 7:40:30 AM

[up]x6 Save that for next year...when we'll be at war with China

Trump delenda est
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#162473: Dec 15th 2016 at 7:47:05 AM

Except Trump will either say it's locker room talk or admits that he was only talking about eating Chinese babies. And the alt-Reich will eat it up.

Meanwhile, the Dem candidate will catch flack for his/her face on camera.

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#162474: Dec 15th 2016 at 7:48:21 AM

A dem speaking against it would be accused of taking jobs away from impoverished baby farmers.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#162475: Dec 15th 2016 at 7:49:43 AM

All while the Russians annex Estonia or something.

Oh really when?

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