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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Politics is the art of rhetoric and public speaking and the oldest institutions in America is the church...Reagan's "city on the hill" comes from an old sermon from the Puritan days. And when American salesman and others started making sales pitches, making circuses and other spectacles, like P. T. Barnum and others, that rhetoric crossed streams into politics and entertainment.
That can have good things and bad things...but ultimately it keeps alive a messianic strain. Can you give a speech without coming of as the Messiah? Well some in Europe can, like Dominque Villepin's famous speech at the UN, Weizsacker's speech in West Germany and others.
X4 Thing is all fo that came after the popular movement, the US didn't get involved until after there was already an internal push to remove the government. While it was certainly in favour of a change of government it didn't actually do anything to help bring the change about. All the US did was provide support for the new government once it took power and was engaged in conflict with Russia. Sure the US media spun things dramatically, but the US media doesn't have real power and influence over Ukrainian internal affairs.
That's a far cry from Russia directly hacking and leaking to support one candidate, the US providing aid to facist generals wanting to remove democratic leaders, or the US working directly with other powers to forcefully install a despot in a nation so that the US can keep the oil flowing.
Yes Russia fears NATO expansion, but NATO wasn't on the table for Ukraine when the conflict started, EU membership was and that's why the EU was so shocked, it didn't expect for Russia to react to possible EU membership as it had in the past reacted to possible NATO membership.
edited 14th Dec '16 8:13:30 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
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Ok, one, no it does not read like a "Republic in the West". Most secessionists are fringers and the vast majority of state governors are well aware that secession at this point is a bad fuckin idea. I would LOVE it if we would stop bringing up secession in this thread like it's a viable possibility. Many, many things would have to go wrong for that to not only be possible, but become a majority opinion in whatever places we're talking about.
Two; Oh no, America imposed sanctions on Russia. No, we are not fucking responsible for Ukraine. America imposing sanction cannot be solely responsible for a situation that had been brewing there for decades. What America does is not, somehow, magically responsible for every bad thing that happens. America is not all good, but it's not some Illuminati like group that secretly runs the world and causes everything either. Russia bears responsibilities for its own crimes, too.
edited 14th Dec '16 8:13:03 PM by AceofSpades
Technically, it was although it was short-lived.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Republic
Our flag is even comes from the flag the California Republic.
x8
There's a thread in On-Topic which discusses the Ukraine situation in detail. I am only addressing the role of America and American politics in it, which is relevant because it was Putin's motives for the hacking and ending the sanctions. The Ukraine issue has to do with Post-Cold War Europe and the failure to build an effective national identity and proper institutions in many of these regions...there's a failure to reflect properly on the Soviet days which leads them to glorify the days before the Soviets which at times amounts to reconstructing Nazi collaborators and justifying the murder of Jews. American Cold War propaganda plays a major role in the latter, as is their encouragement of the Prague Declaration (criticized by many Jewish historians and activists) and the Commie-Nazis quotes and saying the Ukrainian famine is a genocide (which were it to be seen and followed would mean that the Irish Potato Famine, and the Trail of Tears and other similar incidents will also be seen as genocide in opposition to the 1948 UN Genocide Convention).
As American historian J. Arch Getty says here
:
Now Putin is an oligarch, ex-KGB plutocrat, journalist killing political gangster...all that is absolutely true. His government has committed atrocities in Chechnya (for which they are rewarded with by revenge-driven terrorist attacks in Russia, some of which spilled over to USA in the Boston incident). But if you ask is Putin worse than Dubya Bush and his cronies (whose idea of governance is essentially an American version of Russia's oligarchy), if Putin is worse than Singapore's Lee Kuan-Yew, is he worse than the ruling powers of Saudi Arabia, is he worse than India's Narendra Modi who presided over pogroms in Gujarat as Minister of State in 2002? By normal international standards, Putin is typical. Modi, the clown from India, is fawned and petted by Obama and currently doing some frankly stupid demonetization scheme that has created a rush of crowds at the bank leading to the deaths of some 50 people last time I checked and he did worse in 2002-2003, which was more or less the Tulsa Riots of 1921 transplanted to Gujarat...and that's India, The Largest Democracy which practices draconian censorship of media and boasts a culture of prudishness and repression that's as bad as China and Iran, and arguably worse than the former. (India was the first country in the world to ban The Satanic Verses).
The fact is globally everyone agrees that you can't fight and spread justice by invading other nations. America doesn't do that. So they only antagonize Putin and others for economic and political grudges, and American Supremacy, not for Realpolitik Encouraging "regime change" has never really worked. The global institutions to correct such abuses like the Hague and the ICC won't work because America would never allow Dubya and others to stand trial, and they prevented Pinochet from having his day in the court. "From those who have more, more will be expected", the most Democratic country in the world, have the burden and onus to bring their war criminals to trial to have any moral authority to compel others to follow suit. America has not upheld this obligation and that means that it doesn't have any real grounds and effective room to promote human rights and democracy in the world.
edited 14th Dec '16 8:39:21 PM by JulianLapostat
The relationship between the USA and Russia is the international equivalent of the Hatfields and the Mc Coys. The rest of the world are the increasingly irritated neighbors — the EU being one particularly prominent and outspoken neighborhood association — who wish the two families would either just wipe each other out or fuck to clear the Belligerent Sexual Tension already.
edited 14th Dec '16 8:45:47 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
Considering, when Putin is demonized by the USA and Europe, that instead of trying to alleviate our fears, he instead manipulates the US 2016 Election, I think everyone is completely justified in demonizing him. If anytime he doesn't get his way, he's going to manipulate or invade nations and do whatever the hell he wants to, then I'm gonna call him what he is, a tyrant, and no one should think he is anything but one.
And, as far as I can tell, neither Singapore nor India have invaded their neighbors because Anti-Singapore or Anti-India Politicians took over, nor have they been caught rigging anyone's elections yet.
edited 14th Dec '16 8:48:24 PM by DingoWalley1
That's what happens when you rely on the image of a strong-man to maintain popularity. You gotta do everything you can to maintain that image of strength, power, and menace both at home and abroad. Otherwise you lose support. That often entails acting like a total dick.
One reason making strong-men heads of state is not a good idea.
edited 14th Dec '16 8:51:45 PM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprisedThat's the ultimate problem I'm noticing:
People don't seem to care or realize that their rights are in jeopardy, in fact they give them up willingly to these would-be dictators hoping that they will be the perfect autocrat who will make everything better without those pesky checks and balances in the way. But that pretty much never happens, what happens is cronyism, corruption, censorship, violations of civil rights, horrible management, etc. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they don't care about those as long as the boot is on the face of the people they hate, unaware that they too are in danger.
I don't know if that really applies to Russia and Putin (don't know enough about russian politics and history), but it certainly applies to the US and Trump.
edited 14th Dec '16 9:05:47 PM by Draghinazzo
And I've been a part of it since the part, go read the debates Shinra and I had over there, this isn't something I haven't learned about.
Thing is you've provided no real argument to back up that assertion, Russia by and large doesn't care about the sanctions (the Saudis messing with oil prices did more damage than sanctions ever could) and to treat Ukraine and the sanctions as if its some huge moment in Russia-US relationips is false, this isn't about Ukraine, it's never been about Ukraine, it's about the same things it's always been about, the Russian government wanting to improve its own level of power on the world stage and limit the power of its rivals on the world stage.
That may be in opposition to the UN convention but it's certainly how public opinion views such events, you try telling an Irish person that the potato famine wasn't an English attempt at genocide or a Native American that the Trial of Tears wasn't a genocide, maybe a genocide by negligence, but the negligence was itself born of malice and racial hatred.
As for your idea that Putin is typical amongst world leaders, while that's possible true and an interesting subject in of itself I fail to see the relevance, I've never claimed that Putin is some evil devil villain.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranSomething I just learned is that that Questionaire, the one asking the EPA about people who studied Global Climate Change, apparently wasn't sanctioned (according to Yahoo News). "The questionnaire was not authorized or part of our standard protocol. The person who sent it has been properly counseled,” [A Trump] official said
.
So, there's 3 Possibilities for this: A) Someone in Trump's Team thought that Trump would need the names for any purge he may or may not do, B) Trump did send the Questionnaire out, but when the backlash from it got intense, he backed down and got someone to take the fall for him, or C) the official is lying and the Questionnaire is just going to be ignored until at least Jan. 20th.
I'd guess number 2- when the EPA refused to fill it out, Trump decided to pull out his old, trusty, 'blame some random underling for any and all mistakes' card.
But whatever. I don't think anyone thought that was going to be the scandal that pulled Trump down, so what really matters is that the questionnaire's dead.
Well you Create Your Own Villain. Russians tend to be paranoid, and Putin as most leaders in Russia are (Lenin being an exception) are even more paranoid. Putin has opposed American encouraging other nations to join NATO and while it might be defensive in nature it damn sure does look aggressive to Russians, with Americans being either malicious, indifferent, stupid and Not Helping Your Case. It's the little things that pile up year by year which Americans do casually that eventually boiled up in the Crimean situation and those sanctions.
And Putin despite being demonized by USA helped Obama with the Iran Deal, and he proposed a joint operation with America in Syria. I disagree with the former or any intervention in Syria, because none of the people are capable of fixing that appalling and tragic mess but I think that could have at least reduced the violence and brought some amount of compromise and Putin could always arrange say...an accident for Assad...if Americans really want him gone and want him off the peace table. That could have maybe brought some kind of resolution...partition of Syria is definitely going to happen because there's no way Assad can rule over an undivided Syria, not with massive ethnic cleansing. And ultimately let's be real, the real loser from Putin helping out is Saudi Arabia (America's ally) who doesn't like the idea of a strengthened Iran and Shia faction, and Americans defend Saudi Arabia always...even when they really really shouldn't.
India is a large sub-continent that covers territory bigger than Western Europe, it has plenty of land and territory to grab inside its domain, and plenty of its own citizens to oppress for it to invade outside. Kashmir in India is more or less a Police State with fewer rights and privileges than any other part of India, if you are poor in India well every jail in India is Abu Ghraib because Police Brutality and torture and extra-judicial killing is openly promoted, and glorified in their movies. Habeas Corpus is not followed much, and the corruption in India is legendary...though I have heard it's fixed in some aspects recently. And then India's tribal lands and territories become eminent domain and sold off to corporations who send goon squads to clear and cleanse land and forests...leading to a few separatist guerrilla movements there. And of course their current Prime Minister was involved in anti-muslim pogroms in 2002 and he got elected anyway. India is also not covered in the NPT and they more or less sneakily tested nuclear weapons in the 90s...which escalated a conflict with Pakistan. It was so bad that Bill Clinton had to parachute in India like some diplomatic James Bond to defuse that situation.
As for Lee Kuan-Yew, he's more or less Competent!Trump...Read up William Gibson's essay on Singapore.
Russians see it that way emotionally. Putin sees it that way emotionally (and yes he is an emotional man). They see it as consequences of long term policies undertaken or enabled by America and the failure of America's media to properly represent them. And yes Russia do want to take the stage as a major world power and extend its global influence, because the fact is they are a major world power (By geography and economic resources alone) and America more or less acts as if the end of Cold War would mean that Russia itself disappear and they never have to deal with them.
Well the word genocide wasn't invented for the Trail of Tears and the Potato Famine or even the 1934 Famine, it was invented for, first the Armenian Genocide, and then The Holocaust, and was more or less made into an actual legal category in the 1948 Convention. That the word is now applied to any massacre that happens is kind of irresponsible and against the spirit of the context for which it was created. I mean Raphael Lemkin made that clear, because African-Americans such as Paul Robeson and others protested and advocated for recognizing America's treatment of African-Americans as a genocide, which he pointed out didn't fit the legal category and I agree...institutional racism and abuse of African-Americans and the crimes of slavery is terrible and horrible, but it doesn't really fit the category of genocide.
edited 14th Dec '16 9:23:53 PM by JulianLapostat
How about we head over to the Russia thread for a Russian perspective on how Russia views Ukraine? Because I'd bet money that the view is much more "yet another example of the US dicking about where it doesn't belong, applying false moral standards and punishing Russia for acting the same way the US often acts" than "this is the final straw in US arrogance, the US has gone this far and must be allowed to go no further, a line must be drawn!". This shit isn't new to Russia and while they're sick of it they're also used to it, it's nothing special.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranYour stubborn insistence that Crimea is somehow the fault of US sanctions on Russia makes it look like you have blinders on. Again, that was a situation decades in the making. Ukraine was dealing with its own corrupt leadership, has been considering joining NATO and the EU for its own benefit for some time, and none of this had anything to do with what the US was doing elsewhere. This idea that us trying to help out people we've had longstanding alliances with and obligations to is somehow directly responsible for Putin basically invading a country and forcibly annexing part of it right after it kicked out a corrupt and powerful official is, somehow, a reaction to sanctions is ridiculous.
You really are putting too much on America in this case. Even if he was reacting to the US, that still doesn't make it our fault because there was literally nothing in the sanctions that could have justified a response of that kind against one of its neighbors. A country it has tried to control ever since the USSR fell apart, I must note.
I agree that it was decades in the making, but I disagree with the rest. Why would Ukraine even dream of NATO membership? The reason is America extended it to Poland and the Baltic States after explicitly promising Gorbachev that it would end with Germany and that's it. They broke their word to Gorbachev, a nice (albeit highly naive) well-meaning politician who tried to work with Reagan...that was what Russians being nice to Americans got them...so what incentive is there for Putin to not be a d-ck.
They then encouraged crap like the Prague Declaration equating Nazism and Communism leading to the absurdity of fascist collaborators raised to heroes and Jewish partisans branded as war criminals in Lithuania (a country whose "nationalists" overwhelmingly collaborated with the Nazis and led to the destruction of some 90% of its Jewish population). If America had told them to knock it off with that, that would have at least won some trust from Russia. The Cold War ended, we have actual archival information from the other side showing that no Stalin didn't kill as much as Hitler...and they still let propaganda continue heedless of the consequences of what would happen, which is more or less reconstruct and glorify anti-semites and Nazi collaborators and make them freedom fighters.
So naturally this made Russians start interfering and dominating the nearby nations which haven't yet joined NATO yet...that's why they intervened in Ossetia and Georgia, and you would think America would think twice before it happening again. Then they encouraged Euromaidan even if the leaders collaborated with neo-Nazis and fascists
, who are now en route to pulling a coup in Western Ukraine, a fact which American media failed to emphasize.
Although Parubiy has not been formally affiliated with far-right organizations since the early 2000s, he has spoken fondly of his past; when prodded to repudiate his background in a 2015 interview, he insisted that his “values” have not changed. Parubiy’s history served him well: He was responsible for organizing ultranationalists into Maidan “self-defense” units that made Yanukovych’s overthrow possible, and assured Parubiy a prominent role in the new government. (The information that the man spent over a decade leading neo-fascist organizations was conspicuously absent from press releases during his 2015 and 2016 visits to meet with members of Congress and Washington think tanks.)
Avakov, in turn, developed Maidan’s “self-defense” formations into heavily equipped paramilitary units that fought in Donbass as well as brutally suppressed any hint of secession in Russian-speaking cities that had not yet fallen to the rebels. In the process, these units amassed a horrific record of rape, torture, kidnapping, murder, and possible war crimes, as attested by numerous Amnesty International and United Nations reports.
After becoming interior minister, Avakov has promoted figures such as a veteran of the neo-Nazi group Patriot of Ukraine and the Azov Battalion who recently became acting chief over Ukraine’s National Police. The National Police—which was funded, equipped, and trained by Washington—was once held up as a shining example of Washington’s guiding Ukraine toward democracy. The fact that it’s now run by a man with neo-Nazi ties is a particularly ironic example of unintended consequences.
edited 14th Dec '16 9:59:25 PM by JulianLapostat
Here's Why I Will Never Call Donald Trump "Mr. President:"
a scathing opinion piece from activist Shaun King.
In a nutshell, the presidency and its associated titles should be an office that commands respect. And Trump is not a person worthy of any sort of respect whatsoever.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."Russia's annexation of Crimea can largely be described as a strategic military decision, but that's a subject for another thread.
