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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#162301: Dec 14th 2016 at 12:59:02 PM

So the FBI basically admits that there was manipulation but not that it actually played into the hands of Russia by doing what it could to undermine the democrats for more than a decade.....

Yeah, sounds about right.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#162302: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:00:32 PM

FBI got lucky.

Had Clinton won she would've cleaned house.

New Survey coming this weekend!
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#162303: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:10:53 PM

@ Julian

Rand was no dissident. She actually benefited from the Bolsheviks. They opened free university education for all girls, and Rand graduated from Petrograd university thanks to that. The Soviet Government also gave her a visa to visit America, no questions asked and no strings attached.

So by your logic, any citizen of a communist state who attended the state-funded (to a degree anyways, it varied from nation to nation) colleges and universities are not worthy of being labeled dissidents because they "benefited" from the system? Are the millions of college students across the Warsaw Pact and China that came out into the streets to protest during The '80s technically not "dissidents" in your view?

Political dissidence is purely a psychological action. To measure what makes a person a dissident based on material aspects is self-defeating. That's like saying a person's not a racist because they haven't burned a cross or waved a Confederate flag yet.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#162304: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:11:35 PM

@Tactical: I imagine that's part of why they propped up Trump.

It's been fun.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#162305: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:13:03 PM

@Rational: I wouldn't necessarily say he's going to be Russian stooge. He's definitely an adherent of the realist school of international relations, insofar as he can be tied to any particular school of thought. In the modern, heavily globalized world, that's not particularly encouraging.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#162306: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:24:23 PM

Ayn Rand also spent just about her whole adult life railing against the Soviet regime and the communist philosophy. Her own was, largely, in deliberate response to that sort of thing. Her benefiting from something she couldn't avoid as a youth is just a fact of life for the time, and her continuing benefit later on in America is hypocritical, but none of that means she wasn't a dissident.

Although this seems off topic right now.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162307: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:28:43 PM

So by your logic, any citizen of a communist state who attended the state-funded (to a degree anyways, it varied from nation to nation) colleges and universities are not worthy of being labeled dissidents because they "benefited" from the system?

They get labelled dissidents if they take a stand against the government, are imprisoned by the government, or otherwise targeted by them. Solzhenitsyn was a dissident, Sakharov, the Medvedev brothers are dissidents. The Polish intelligentsia like Jacek Kuron, Andrezj Wajda and others are dissidents. Ayn Rand doesn't fit the profile at all.

Are the millions of college students across the Warsaw Pact and China that came out into the streets to protest during The '80s technically not "dissidents" in your view?

Ayn Rand never did any of those actions. I am saying she got educated at Petrograd and got to America on a USSR visa without any baggage and issues. That certainly makes her experience a little more privileged than what others faced.

Political dissidence is purely a psychological action.

It's also an actual political action. Rand only spoke against USSR after arriving in America and getting all she could from that system. That isn't dissidence. Solzhenitsyn writing about the Gulag is dissidence. Much as I dislike and disagree with him, Edward Snowjob's actions are actually dissident as well, but then I don't think "dissidents=good" necessarily. Solzhenitsyn is himself proof of that, good writer but a Great Russian supremacist and anti-semite. Then you have Liu Xiaobo the Chinese dissident who got a Noble Peace Prize supported the Iraq War and more or less says that China would be beter if the West re-colonized it. Now I would say he's dissident of course because he did speak against the state and was imprisoned for it, but I certainly don't think he or his views are valid, correct or defensible simply because he's speaking against the CCP.

Rand with her indefensible views would not be out of place among such "dissidents" but agree or disagree, the others at least took stances that took some courage, which I don't think Rand ever did.

To measure what makes a person a dissident based on material aspects is self-defeating. That's like saying a person's not a racist because they haven't burned a cross or waved a Confederate flag yet

Look the word dissident comes from the Protestant Sects who came to America to escape the Protestant Anglican Church, and the Protestants was an original dissenting sect against the Catholic Church. These OG Dissidents who came to America's shores bought slaves, killed indians and perpetrated the Salem trials while the original Protestants led by Luther were nasty anti-semites. There's nothing inherently pure or moral about being a "dissident" it's just a particular political category, and I don't think it applies to Ayn Rand.

edited 14th Dec '16 1:31:36 PM by JulianLapostat

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#162308: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:30:02 PM

Trump? A realist? Are you serious?

No (American) realist would threaten NATO or think that making an issue of Taiwan would be a good idea.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#162309: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:32:58 PM

[up] I wouldn't call him an effective political realist, but his view of foreign policy in largely transactional terms and a willingness to discard alliances that are not viewed as beneficial is very much a realist point of view.

Hence me expecting his foreign policy to combine the worst of Nixon and GW Bush; badly implemented and shortsighted realpolitiking with little to no regard for human rights.

edited 14th Dec '16 1:36:15 PM by CaptainCapsase

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#162310: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:33:57 PM

[up] So what your saying is he's an Ideological Realist.tongue

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#162311: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:35:53 PM

[up] Well yes, that's definitely what his foreign policy ethos is shaping up to be.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#162312: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:36:00 PM

He doesn't view said alliances as beneficial to him, its never been about his country.

Trump is going to be a kleptocrat, pure and simple. Attaching a school of thought or even ideology to him is pointless. Now, the scumbags he is surrounded by (or the GOP cowards who let him get this far) are another story.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#162313: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:38:14 PM

[up] Oh I have no doubt there will be ridiculous amounts of corruption by American standards, but the people around Trump and the executive branch as a whole will be forced to make it into workable policy, and an unholy blend of Nixonian realism and Bush-era incompetence with an extra whiff of corruption seems quite likely to be the end result.

edited 14th Dec '16 1:39:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162314: Dec 14th 2016 at 1:49:02 PM

In so far as Trump decides he's not going to give a crap about long-standing treaties, alliances built on ideological and mutual interests, and drops any pretense of caring about human rights abuses, he actually is a realist...i.e. the zero-level rate. Or rather, he's more or less in line with America's own foreign policy attitude. I mean Obama's Iran N-Deal is realistic as well...it's just that it's applied to a nation America hates.

I mean America's piety about human rights and its support for Saudi Arabia is a laughing stock for the world. America's foreign policy has always been realistic, but hypocritical and two-faced. It harasses Cuba and Iran, not for ideological reasons but to Make an Example of Them and show what happens to nations who stand for themselves and try and defy it. Trump's foreign policy is More or less At Least I Admit It.

Were it not for the circumstances and context, I actually would agree that America and the West should have better relations with Russia and not be so hostile to it and Trump's attitude to NATO is kind of realistic. Even Obama complained that NATO's other partners are not paying enough for defense, Trump took it another level and more or less admitted that NATO is America's protection racket and where formerly Boss Vito would ask for kindly favors and benevolence from the EU, Trump is Joey Zaza.

Remember that America's intervention in the Ukraine was a disaster...they created a coup against a corrupt government and to create that coup they more or less allied with Ukrainian Far-Right elements. As this article on the Nation notes:

In addition to stymieing the Ukraine peace process and resolution of EU-Russia sanctions, the far right has flouted the rule of law, fostered instability, and undermined basic democratic institutions within Ukraine. Gangs tied to the Azov, Aidar, Right Sector, and Tornado battalions have had gun battles with police, intimidated court proceedings, overturned local elections, torched media buildings, attacked undesirable Soviet monuments, violently threatened journalists, and overtly spoken of overthrowing the government.

It is difficult to imagine any stable administration tolerating three years of such brazen challenges to its monopoly over the use of force, yet nearly all of the far right’s actions have gone unpunished. ...

Both men played a critical role in harnessing neo-Nazi street muscle during the winter 2013–14 Maidan uprising that resulted in the ouster of corrupt, albeit democratically elected, president Viktor Yanukovych. Parubiy’s ties with the far right go back decades: He co-founded and led the Social-National Party of Ukraine, which used neo-Nazi symbols and whose name, according to Der Spiegel, is an intentional reference to the Nazi Party. ...

It’s no surprise that, with influential leaders tied to the far right, inquiries are quashed by Kiev. Requests by the Council of Europe to look into the May 2, 2014, massacre in which 48 pro-Russian Ukrainians were burned alive after being chased into an Odessa building by radicals have yielded nothing. When an ultranationalist website leaked personal information about journalists who reported from the Donbass conflict zone, labeling them “terrorist collaborators,” it triggered an international backlash from The New York Times and The Daily Beast to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. The website, however, is tied to Avakov, and despite a vociferous outcry from Western media, it has not been shut down. ... Washington has been right to pressure Kiev to battle corruption and enforce the rule of law—as a New York Times editorial bluntly stated, America “cannot continue to shovel money into a corrupt swamp unless the government starts shaping the democratic rule that Ukrainians demanded in their protests.” The presence of armed white-supremacist formations with free rein to influence domestic and foreign policy poses a threat to democracy that’s at least as serious as graft. It is especially necessary to address this in 2017, as ultranationalism, racism, and anti-Semitism are surging throughout European nations, many of which lack the democratic safeguards of the United States. Washington must stop ignoring the far right in Ukraine, or risk sending an unhealthy message of tolerance to white supremacists, both at home and abroad.

Putin's attitude more or less is, "You put a fascist on my borders and doorsteps, then put sanctions on my economy when I try and respond to that, expand NATO after breaking your word with Gorbachev...well, I put one in the White House, how do ya like dem apples". Trump and the election hacks are his F—- You. Problem is we're all paying for it.

edited 14th Dec '16 1:52:58 PM by JulianLapostat

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#162315: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:11:21 PM

Granted, a lot of NATO members are starting to raise their spending (even before Trump started undermining the post-WW 2 Western order), especially those most at risk.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Geostomp In the name of the POWER, I will punish you! from Arkansas, USA Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
In the name of the POWER, I will punish you!
#162316: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:13:14 PM

What I want to know is at what point does Trump become such a liability that even the Republicans can't take him?

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all" Futurama, Godfellas
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#162317: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:15:46 PM

A visual guide to news reliability in the US. Its a bit soft of Fox, but its still a decent summary IMO. http://imgur.com/7xHaUXf

[up]If the economy starts contracting, or if major unrest breaks out or if he gets caught in blatant and undeniable criminal activity.

edited 14th Dec '16 2:16:23 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#162318: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:16:35 PM

This thread moves fast so hopefully it hasn't been shared already, but Hillary ignored michigan and others worse than I'd thought.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#162319: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:27:05 PM

@Julian: I'm not sure he actually intends to be hawkish on Iran, honestly. I don't think he's even brought up Iran since the election, it's mostly been about China. As far as Hawkishness goes at least.

edited 14th Dec '16 2:28:17 PM by CaptainCapsase

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162320: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:27:18 PM

The point is the membership to NATO should never have been extended after the end of the USSR. I mean Gorbachev got an agreement from Daddy Bush that said more or less that a reunited Gemany can join NATO which for the Russians was a huge concession given the memories of WWI and WWII attempts at Drang nach Osten by Germany, and in exchange for that, America was to have ceased expanding NATO Eastwards.

Then a few years later, Poland joins in, the Baltic Nations join in and so on...and Russians naturally feel stiffed. And the Americans just say, "That was a verbal agreement, cuz, if you believed in what we said then you deserve to be cheated by us". So how is Trump an improvement from that. Then there was talks of getting Georgia and Ukraine, right on Russia's borders, to join NATO which forced Putin's hands to intervene there before NATO makes those nations untouchable. And ultimately, how is America looking good, when the governments that they enable are a bunch of nationalists whitewashing their history of Nazi collaboration, that's what happens in the Baltics and the Ukraine, where soldiers who fought alongside Waffen-SS are praised and reconstructed (in a historical revisionism not unlike the Confederacy) while Red Army types are demonized, even when they are Jews who fought alongside the Red Army as partisans, now they are called "war criminals" because thanks to Cold War propaganda you have Commie-Nazis and anyone who is an anti-communist is "good" without taking into account the implications of what that means.

For Russians this is psychology. Their history is all about trauma from invasions: The Mongols, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Swedes, Napoleon, the Kaiser, Hitler. And to them America and NATO are the next in line. And the US has done nothing to dispell that sentiment.

edited 14th Dec '16 2:30:37 PM by JulianLapostat

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#162321: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:28:07 PM

Twitter was told it was "bounced" from Wednesday's meeting between tech executives and President-elect Donald Trump in retribution for refusing during the campaign to allow an emoji version of the hashtag #Crooked Hillary, according to a source close to the situation.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/donald-trump-twitter-emoji-crooked-hillary-232647

Trumps pettiness is disgusting

New Survey coming this weekend!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#162322: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:28:16 PM

Reading up on past elections, I think that the economy is going to be the main thing going forward as far as Trump sinking goes.

The problem is with voter suppression guaranteed to be dreadful and the likelihood of future Russian interference in 2020, I'm unsure if general discontent with Trump is going to be enough to unseat him even then.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#162323: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:34:43 PM

[up][up][up][up] Politico leans conservative as a whole, so it's very much in its interest to play up Hillary missing Michigan rather than emphasizing sabotage from Comey and Russia.

I see Hillary missing the Rust Belt as a Tragic Mistake, in the days leading up to Election Day, there are a huge host of suggestions on your desk on what to do and everything gets promoted as the last desperate chance and you can only choose some of them. And she had this Comey Email Incident sprung on her suddenly occupying her attention.

And even then it came close. So I'd put it down to luck. I think she did the best she could and came close and had too much weighing her down.

On another note, this article by Politico is interesting:

Trump, a businessman-turned-politician, has long encouraged competition among factions within his organizations, creating a pressure-cooker environment where almost every decision resulted in a winner and a loser. In the end, one side would be vanquished and another would take its place, and the cycle would repeat.

Trump’s campaign was for months paralyzed as his two top aides, Paul Manafort and Corey Lewandowski, locked horns. Manafort would eventually prevail, with Lewandowski’s firing, but it wasn’t long before Manafort was supplanted by the trio of Bannon, Conway and conservative activist David Bossie.

Now, as Trump builds out his government, little seems to have changed. If anything, transition officials say, Trump seems to be relishing the idea of presiding over a divided administration.

The thing is this is exactly how Adolf Hitler operated. I am not invoking Godwin's Law, I am being serious. Hitler ran the Nazi Party and German administration exactly the same way. Playing factions and groups against each other, making them win his support.

edited 14th Dec '16 2:40:26 PM by JulianLapostat

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#162324: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:40:07 PM

Why oh why didn't they listen to Bill's logistical advice?sad

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#162325: Dec 14th 2016 at 2:44:19 PM

[up][up] I seriously doubt that particular trend was limited to Hitler, or even necessarily to authoritarian leaders.


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