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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#161726: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:57:06 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161727: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:57:51 AM

[up][up][up][up]All hail oligarchy/whatever the "Dark Enlightenment" is in favor of? I'm not looking forwards to reading his thesis if he even gets there.

A big change to U.S. broadcasting is coming — and it’s one Putin might admire

FOR YEARS, members of Congress have fumed about what they regard as ineffective U.S. public diplomacy, including the failure of broadcasting operations such as the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty to match the reach and apparent influence of networks such as Russia’s RT and Qatar’s al Jazeera. A frequent and arguably fair focus of criticism has been the Broadcasting Board of Governors, the body created to supervise government-funded media outlets while serving as a firewall between them and the political administration of the day.

A radical change to that system is now coming — and it looks like one that Vladi­mir Putin and Qatar’s emir might well admire. An amendment quietly inserted into the annual National Defense Authorization Act by Republican House leaders would abolish the broadcasting board and place VOA, RFE/RL and other international news and information operations under the direct control of a chief executive appointed by the president. The new executive would hire and fire senior media personnel and manage their budgets.

With a confirming vote by the GOP-controlled Senate, President-elect Donald Trump will be able to install the editor of Breitbart News or another propagandist of his choice to direct how the United States is presented to the world by VOA, or how Russia is covered by RL. If Congress’s intention was for U.S. broadcasting to rival the Kremlin’s, it may well get its wish.

The damage to U.S. interests could be considerable. The unique attraction for global audiences of RFE/RL, Radio Free Asia and other outlets is not their skill at presenting the U.S. government line, but their journalistic independence. They were created to be “surrogate media,” news organizations that offered accurate and independent coverage of events in countries where citizens could not depend on their own, state-run media. RFE’s coverage of Communist Europe was vital to the growth of the independent political movements that eventually brought down the system. Radio Free Asia strives to serve the same purpose in China, as does Radio y Televisión Martí in Cuba.

The point of board governance was to prevent direct political interference in programming by the White House, State Department or other agencies. It was a guarantee that for decades has helped to attract journalistic talent to the broadcasting organizations, as well as listeners seeking reliable information. The board of governors had serious problems: Its members served part time, and not all took their duties seriously. But the system’s biggest flaw was remedied three years ago with the creation of a chief executive position.

The new reform, driven by House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Edward R. Royce (R-Calif.), enhances that executive’s power and makes him answerable to the White House rather than the bipartisan board. A new advisory panel will be created, but it will be toothless: Its members will also be nominated by the president from a pool provided by Congress.

The Obama administration — perhaps anticipating a Hillary Clinton presidency — supported these changes. Now its outgoing public-diplomacy officials will have to hope that Mr. Trump chooses an executive committed to the U.S. broadcasting tradition of independent and reputable journalism rather than a political loyalist or alt-right ideologue. Either way, there is likely to be an exodus of seasoned professionals from the surrogate broadcasters as well as VOA — meaning that U.S. international broadcasting, whatever its current deficiencies, is likely to get worse.

Well, it's not like RT viewers even know of VOA these days...

edited 12th Dec '16 1:58:02 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#161728: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:00:03 AM

[up] So then, instead of just being the song about what Armstrong claims his motive is, Collective Consciousness would instead be Trump's actual Villain Song.

Some of the lines...really, honestly fit.

  • Live in ignorance and purchase your happiness
  • when blood and sweat is the real cost
  • Thinking ceases, the truth is lost

edited 12th Dec '16 2:00:26 AM by NickTheSwing

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161729: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:02:06 AM

[up]The only difference is that Trump's Metal Gear would be gold-plated.

Disgusted, but not surprised
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#161730: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:02:14 AM

But garribob, the people who voted for Trump aren't common. They're a very small minority.

So do the "elites" outnumber the common man according to you or?

Oh really when?
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#161731: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:03:02 AM

Garridob: You've so vaguely defined what the cultural elite is so that it includes you. Newsflash: You are not elite of any kind just because you read magazines or enjoy a dead playwright. You've basically stretched the phrase out to near meaningless apparently just so you could include yourself.

This is a description closer to what the phrase actually means:

https://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/pity-the-postmodern-cultural-elite/

http://sociology.iresearchnet.com/sociology-of-culture/elite-culture/

And quite frankly, given your earlier comment of "elites must control the common man" I still think you're either a troll or someone who is not worth conversing with, because we're just not going to agree with you that someone needs to be "controlled". That's autocratic bullshit right there, and I have no patience with it. It's also stupidly vague.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#161732: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:05:02 AM

I am liberal, and Jewish, and much more intelligent than the average person, and I am definitely NOT the elite. My family is broke as shit, bankrupt, and barely surviving from week to every other week on food from the 99¢ Store. I've been screwed by Arizona's shitty education system my whole life, because it is completely unprepared to even attempt to properly educate a smart kid with Asperger's. I can't identify with a guy who casually eats fast-food, because my family sometimes can't even afford fast-food. But, please, go on about how us liberals are the 'elite'.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#161733: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:06:05 AM

I guess that was Trump's appeal for some people: "No need to better yourself! You're American! You're Number One!"
I think that was his appeal for a lot of people. It basically takes LBJ's quote about white men being satisfied by just having someone to look down on, and applies it to the international level. note 

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#161734: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:06:32 AM

See, I think "elite" like "fascism" is one of these terms that have become a meaningless slur that you throw at everyone you don't agree with through overuse.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161735: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:08:17 AM

Krieger,

I'm confused. You don't like Trump. Uneducated people overwhelmingly went for Trump and yet you are for the common people? http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/

This seems contradictory.

3of4

My thesis is that empires die in one of two ways - slowly by hereditary elitism or quickly by the wrath of the proles. Wrath of the proles destroys things quickly because the people don't feel they have a stake in the survival of the polity, hence they are happy to see it burn. If this sounds Trumpian or Brexity, well, I think so, too.

Hereditary elitism, such as that seen in the Clinton or Bush dynasties, kills the empire slowly. HRC or GWB, because of their family connections, have a lot of stake in the survival of the polity and thus don't want to see it burn down. However, they also have not gotten their power through merit and thus have a random relationship with merit. This means the leadership gets worse and worse the farther it gets from the founders (who did have merit) and the upwardly mobile (who almost have to possess merit by definition) leading to a decadent decay.

My proposal is to strengthen the common man's investment in the polity by giving him the chance to replace the hereditary elites and become an elite himself. If the common people have hope and the elites have merit, everybody wins.

Septimus,

If I'm using elite as a slur, I'm applying it to myself. I am defining the cultural elite as educated people with the leisure to pursue non-practical, purely intellectual persuits.

edited 12th Dec '16 2:12:53 AM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161736: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:08:24 AM

I am darkly amused (and horrified of course) by how a bunch of pissed off so-called "anti-elite" people voted into power an administration full of rich and corrupt "elites".

Disgusted, but not surprised
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#161737: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:12:16 AM

Sounds like you're buying into the Prosperity Gospel there, Garridob. That's a dangerous place to go.

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161738: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:13:16 AM

Ace Of Spades,

I don't know what that is. If you mean "lassez faire," then no.

edited 12th Dec '16 2:14:51 AM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161739: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:14:20 AM

[up] Long story short, a fucking perversion of Christian belief that equates morality and intrinsic worth as a human being with economic prosperity.

Disgusted, but not surprised
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#161740: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:14:21 AM

Again garribob you haven't addressed the fact that education is not an elite thing to have and that the "common people" you talk about who voted for Trump are a very small minority in the US.

Oh really when?
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#161741: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:14:30 AM

and outside of the Anglosphere, their success is much less likely, and indeed, they just lost in Austria and more conventional conservatives are favored to win over Le Pen, and AFD is far less successful than their counterparts in other parts of Europe.

And continuing from that, this Haaretz piece that speculates about the chances of a potential Le Pen collapse thanks to a mix of: an in-fight within the FN with her niece, Mèlenchon* being a viable option for the economic policies without the bigotry, and Fillion siphoning-off the right wing votes.

\*Yes, I, and the writers of the article, know he is firmly left wing.

Here's the article, copied, to get behind Haaretz' paywall:

Marine Le Pen Suffers Wretched Week as Political Challengers Surge in France

With a new rival on the right, the National Front leader is left with only xenophobia. And even her niece is cramping her style in the run-up to the presidential election.

Napoleon’s right-hand man Talleyrand said back in 1814: “It is a calamity for a state to be governed by a good man when it needs a great one.” François Hollande, France’s nicest president ever, hasn’t been great enough. But his popularity is surging – up to 25 percent in some polls – a kind of consolation prize for his dedication to the Republic.

It’s not clear whether the left can exploit Hollande’s resignation announcement and gird for the fight for the Élysée Palace, but one thing is certain: The biggest loser in France’s most turbulent political week in a long time is Marine Le Pen.

On Wednesday, cracks in her National Front party were apparent as many party members openly expressed support for Le Pen’s niece Marion Maréchal-Le Pen. The issue was abortion rights, but the clash has the potential to morph into a full-fledged challenge to the older Le Pen’s leadership.

In the past week, the far-right leader was ready four times to make a dramatic announcement that would help her take back the reins, but ended up having her television appearance canceled each time.

François Fillon won a surprising victory in the center-right primary, Hollande announced he was stepping down, Prime Minister Manuel Valls resigned in order to run for the presidency, and Emmanuel Macron also entered the race on the left. Night after night, Le Pen was preempted by other newsmakers whose stated goal is to block her path to the Élysée Palace.

But it wasn’t just the quantity of challengers. The presence of Thatcherite-like Fillon blurs the differences with Le Pen, leaving her with only xenophobia to propel her campaign.

On every other front – opposition to multiculturalism, restoring Christianity to state culture, making it more difficult for women to legally obtain an abortion, opposition to gay rights and restoring nationalism to the school curriculum – Fillon is perceived as more credible.

Francois Fillon, former French prime minister and member of Les Republicains party, campaigns for the second round for the French presidential primary election, Lyon, France, Nov. 22, 2016.Robert Pratta, Reuters By May, Fillon is expected to clarify his positions on the National Front’s core issues – immigration laws, the country’s attitude toward Islam, revoking the citizenship of terror suspects and closing down mosques. Le Pen understands that she has to attack Fillon head on before he owns these issues, hence her desire to ramp up her headline quota.

Fresh faces

On top of that, the evaporation of the predicted Hollande-Le Pen-Nicolas Sarkozy battle has made Le Pen seem like the representative of the past; now almost all the candidates are new faces. With Hollande and Sarkozy out of the picture, Le Pen is left facing young, sometimes very young, candidates, some of whom are just as populist as she is.

Hollande’s withdrawal created a new map of the left; Valls is now perceived more as a centrist than a leftist. This is strengthening radical-left leader Jean-Luc Mélenchon. Unfortunately for Le Pen, while Mélenchon holds starkly opposing views on foreign affairs and security, his economic platform is incredibly similar to hers.

This odd situation, absent anywhere else in Europe, not only gives Le Pen supporters a non-racist option (or at least, a less racist option, as Mélenchon’s remarks on Israel have taken on an anti-Semitic odor), it’s also driving away right-wing voters who are tempted to shift even further right.

Le Pen also finds herself facing the most unexpected challenge of all – the rise of the political center. Traditionally, the French have shunned centrist positions and have never elected a centrist president. The eternal candidate in this category, François Bayrou, is one of the country’s most popular politicians, but at the moment of truth the French always abandon him.

Macron, the former finance minister, could alter this pattern by siphoning from the far right the votes that centrist candidates are always lacking. Macron is cautious in his responses to questions about immigration, but his pro-business platform is appealing to many who’ve grown disillusioned with Le Pen and view the National Front’s near-communist economic platform as a grave mistake.

The latest polls show that if Macron made it to the presidential election’s second round in May, he would beat Le Pen by a huge margin. Before that, more leftists would feel more comfortable with a former Socialist Party darling than with Fillon.

At the same time, the far right’s defeat in Austria lends credence to the theory that Europeans like to flirt with populist stances in national referendums or local elections, but they return to the legitimate parties in general elections. German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s latest pronouncements, including a call to outlaw the burqa, have further blurred the difference between Le Pen and the classic right wing.

Niece a nuisance

All of which makes it easy to understand the surging opposition to Le Pen and the growing ambition of her niece Marion. The younger Le Pen is the granddaughter of party founder Jean-Marie Le Pen, and despite her young age (she turns 27 this weekend), she has attracted strong support in the movement. The younger Le Pen chose a highly charged issue over which to challenge her aunt: abortion.

The National Front has always been critical of the ease with which women can have abortions in France, but in her attempt to win the women’s vote, Marine Le Pen has been careful to keep any mention of this out of the party’s platform for the 2017 election.

This week, the government gave Marion a chance to hone her positions. The National Assembly passed a law prohibiting anti-abortion organizations from advertising in public, including on billboards and online. The government aims to remove from the public space an American-funded campaign with slogans like “I’ll never forgive myself” and “The guilt feelings never go away.” As of this week, such ads are banned in France and punishable by prison time.

Marion Le Pen hastened to decry the “banalization of abortion” and said the National Front would be “more aggressive than François Fillon” on this issue. Fillon has said he’s against abortion but would not seek to change the status quo.

The young Le Pen also declared that the National Front would cancel the full reimbursement for abortions given by France’s national insurance system, and would institute a “waiting and thinking period” before abortions could be performed.

The National Front leader had no choice but to declare that the party has no intention to change the existing legislation on abortion. As Florian Philippot, one of the party’s vice presidents, put it, “There is only one person in the National Front who holds a different view, and she is all alone in her radical position.”

Since then, party supporters have flooded their Twitter accounts with pictures of Marion Le Pen, ostensibly to show that she’s not “all alone.” The protest essentially amounts to a challenge to her aunt’s leadership.

The National Front is of course no stranger to familial strife; after all, Marine Le Pen ousted her own father from the party. But a crisis around such a fundamental issue could hurt her.

Le Pen will probably be making some strong statements in the coming days in an attempt to stanch the flow and regain the media focus. That is, if she can find an evening when other politicians aren’t stealing the show.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#161742: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:15:14 AM

Trump and his like aren't elites in their worldview. It's like we talked about a while ago in this thread - the white poor view poorness as an obstacle to achieving what they should have, what Trump has. They're not 'poor', they're unlucky, or between jobs, or so on. Economic elites are not elites because in the capitalist-poor worldview, those people earned that money, even bankers and traders. We had a quote in here a few pages ago about how someone could be not a swamp dweller even if they worked for Goldman Sachs, remember?

The 'anti-elitist' faction that elected Trump is against the 'elites' who tell them what to think, like about how the climate is fucked or how we should stop shooting brown people. The ones who resonated with Trump's message of 'change' were reactionaries pushing back against, ironically, the message that we still have progress to make and that things need to keep changing.

It's been fun.
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161743: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:17:42 AM

[up][up]I hope Le Penn goes down in a ball of flame. Demagoging piece of excrement.

Le Garcon,

I showed before the percentages. I'm top 31% the day I graduate with a bachelors. I'm top 11% when I got my master's. I'll be top 2% when I finish my Ph.D. That means 68% of Americans don't have a bachelors and so on. I'm not sure what's missing.

Red Savant,

I think a lot of the reaction is that Trump supporters don't feel like movements like Black Lives Matter are about them. It's the reason I brought up T. Roosevelt's speech earlier - a Democratic Party that reaches out to all the Americans being mistreated by the police is much more likely to get blue collar white votes than one that reaches out to black people being mistreated.

edited 12th Dec '16 2:21:26 AM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161744: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:19:21 AM

[up][up] I wonder if one of the reasons HRC was unpopular with some people was because she comes across at times like a stern lecturing schoolmarm.

Bernie Sanders did much of the same, but he did it in a way that was remniscient of the "angry old man on a street corner" who is at least entertaining when he lectures people.

They both tell people they need to change and do better, but one is at least "fun" to some people. Oh, and he has a dick. Which I suppose helped.

edited 12th Dec '16 2:21:31 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#161745: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:20:23 AM

[up]Language played an absolutely crucial role in this election. Clinton embodied the bureaucrats and technocrats that they always saw as talking down to them. Trump spoke in terms they understood (and like a moron), something many never even expected could be an option, and so they went with the "novelty" of the guy who "tells it like it is" (no matter how much of "it is" bullshit).

My proposal is to strengthen the common man's investment in the polity by giving him the chance to replace the hereditary elites and become an elite himself. If the common people have hope and the elites have merit, everybody wins.
I'm going to assume "common man" = "uneducated" in your proposal (and I'm sure people can find the relevant statistics on its actual "commonness").

Part of that chance to join the "elite" would thus require obtaining an education.

The problem is that these people actively reject education, as has been gone over here many times before. So now what?

edited 12th Dec '16 2:24:27 AM by Eschaton

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161746: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:20:31 AM

Were you actually paying attention to your sociological classes?

Just because your PIDOOMA statistics show that 68% of Americans do not have a college education doesn't mean it will stay that way forever.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161747: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:23:57 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#161748: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:26:11 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
It's been fun.
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#161749: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:27:19 AM

@garridob: Actually, among Americans, you're within the top 58.5-ish percent for having at least some college education. You're in the top 44-ish percent for having at least an associate's degree. You're in the top 32-ish percent for having at least a bachelor's degree. You're in the top 12-ish percent for having a master's degree.

Your percentages are about right, but ignore several lesser, but still present levels of college education.

Also, you may note that a majority of American adults have at least some college education.

Edit: Also, you're growing less and less "elite" by the day - today's young adults (under 30s) are noticibly more educated than our elders, so each year, rhat percentage of college educated Americans ticks a little higher.

This means the leadership gets worse and worse the farther it gets from the founders (who did have merit) and the upwardly mobile (who almost have to possess merit by definition) leading to a decadent decay.
ALERT ALERT DANGEROUS LEVELS OF FOUNDING FATHER WORSHIP DETECTED.

Many of the Founders lacked all kinds of merit and held bizarre or counterproductive views (eg. the idea that the Electoral College was a good idea in the slightest) and were fortunate to live in a time where running a nation-state was far simpler than it is now and things that would be moronic now like not having a central bank were basically just inconveniences at worst. For all their "merit", they would be in way over their heads trying to run the modern USA.

Oh, and also, pretty much textbook Prosperity Gospel on the upwardly mobile there. Upwards mobility generally has at least as much to do with blind luck (and being in privileged demographics) as actual merit.

edited 12th Dec '16 2:40:16 AM by Balmung

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161750: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:27:29 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

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