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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161701: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:33:09 AM

A lot of people have a very weird idea of what "elite" actually means. Somehow, a man like Trump who gold-plates fucking everything and owns a goddamned Dark Tower isn't "elite" because he has a childish vocabulary and eats KFC.

Anti-elitism is really anti-intellectualism in disguise. That's why economic experts who desperately screamed "NOOO! Don't make this idiot POTUS! He'll screw up the global economy!" had the opposite effect for some.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:35:19 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161702: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:33:27 AM

Le Garcon,

If it's just a property of the electoral college (which I'm going to accept just for the sake of argument), how do we explain the rise of Marine Le Penn in France, or Geert Wilder in Denmark, or Brexit?

There is a global wave of pro-common man demagogues and if we don't get it under control, it will erase the incredible prosperity American and European elites were able to create with the Marshal Plan and European Union.

M84,

Agree. He is the common man in the sense that he is vulgar and unrefined much like you'd expect of a high school dropout - hence his appeal to the common people.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:34:57 AM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#161703: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:33:27 AM

First off, I think garridob needs to define what he means by elite. If he means Conservatives in the government, so far a great many of them are loving this situation.

And quite frankly, I don't think you have much to contribute to the conversation here if your posts are going to be full of things like "I distrust the common man" because newsflash; MOST OF US HERE ARE THE COMMON MAN. If not all of us. We're not stupid, and we're not rich, and shitting on people just because they're not whatever you apparently are is exactly the tactic that Trump used. No thank you to that utter bullshit. I'm pretty sure folks on both sides who've come here would get sick of that shit right quick.

And telling us not to double down on social justice? When people are already introducing laws to make abortion tremendously difficult to even being illegal? When cops are still getting off for killing black men? Yeah, no thank you to that bullshit just as equally.

[up]Not one person here has ever claimed that the EC had anyfuckingthing to do with Marie Le Penn. That's your spurious connection.

And now I'm starting to think you're a troll we all fell for.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:34:32 AM by AceofSpades

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161704: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:33:46 AM

[up][up]Look, we've gone over this much earlier on. And then you show up out of the blue and insist that no, we should be looking at the problems with the Democrats instead of worrying about the sheer amount of state and non-state actors Trump has successfully antagonised before taking office.

It's like spoonfeeding an exceptionally dense child. No, sorry, that is an insult to children who don't know better.

[up][up]The European Central Bank's attachment to a economic view that is slightly less detached from reality than Ayn Rand's wet dream is their own problem. Don't move the goalposts.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:35:26 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#161705: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:38:24 AM

Regarding this whole debate about "elite" and "common," I would direct everyone to read what Charles Dickens wrote back in 1842 in his concluding remarks in "American Notes:"

Another prominent feature [of Americans] is the love of ‘smart’ dealing: which gilds over many a swindle and gross breach of trust; many a defalcation, public and private; and enables many a knave to hold his head up with the best, who well deserves a halter; though it has not been without its retributive operation, for this smartness has done more in a few years to impair the public credit, and to cripple the public resources, than dull honesty, however rash, could have effected in a century. The merits of a broken speculation, or a bankruptcy, or of a successful scoundrel, are not gauged by its or his observance of the golden rule, ‘Do as you would be done by,’ but are considered with reference to their smartness.

[...]The following dialogue I have held a hundred times: ‘Is it not a very disgraceful circumstance that such a man as So-and-so should be acquiring a large property by the most infamous and odious means, and notwithstanding all the crimes of which he has been guilty, should be tolerated and abetted by your Citizens? He is a public nuisance, is he not?’ ‘Yes, sir.’ ‘A convicted liar?’ ‘Yes, sir.’ ‘He has been kicked, and cuffed, and caned?’ ‘Yes, sir.’ ‘And he is utterly dishonourable, debased, and profligate?’ ‘Yes, sir.’ ‘In the name of wonder, then, what is his merit?’ ‘Well, sir, he is a smart man.’

edited 12th Dec '16 1:40:30 AM by Eschaton

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#161706: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:38:44 AM

Most people aren't highschool dropouts. The "common people" you're describing are actually a vast minority confined to a few geographic areas. They aren't common.

The common people voted for Clinton in an upset the likes of which this country has never known.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:38:57 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#161707: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:39:02 AM

Also I am compelled to bring up garridob's words such as going on about social justice "glorifying weakness", "playing tribal", the "white man is going to act tribally" and "not everyone thinks working class white culture dying is a good thing", and much of the other stuff is what I've seen on FSTDT - a lot of it comes from Return of Kings, a truly vile site that is commonly posted about on FSTDT.

The emphasis on manliness and et cetera reeks of Roosh V's site.

garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161708: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:39:33 AM

The cultural elite, people like me. I only make about 40K a year, but my privileged access to education has given me a lot of power over my own life. People who write books and read Scientific American. People who enjoy Shakespeare. People who graduated from university. You can't do that without free time and someone investing in you.That's us. We are the ones who supported HRC.

The common people, who have not enjoyed the privileges elites like us have, they supported Trump.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161709: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:40:33 AM

What's FTSDS?

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161710: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:42:12 AM

[up] Fundies Say the Darndest Things. It's website that gathers quotes from well, crazy fundamentalists, MRA's...the "basket of deplorables" if you will, though the website predates HRC's remark.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161711: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:43:07 AM

Fundamentalists Say The Darnest Things. A site dedicated to recording the worst of online religious fundamentalists, but it's branched out as of late.

Also, no, really, the "common man" didn't buy Trump's rhetoric. In fact, Hillary retained grip on the lower and working classes, while the middle class went Republican.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:44:07 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161712: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:43:11 AM

Never heard of it.

I completely agree that the middle class went for Trump. The thing that my 538 article mentions, however, is that the middle class that swung for Trump is the uneducated middle class. There was almost not predictive power over voting based on income in the election, but there was a huge corellation based on education.

A plumber making 80K a year, for example, was much more likely to vote Trump than a school teacher making 35K.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:46:07 AM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#161713: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:44:22 AM

Again, you're not in the elite for having those things. You're pretty average.

Even my poor disenfranchised ass could probably get a college education if I really tried for it.

Oh really when?
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161714: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:45:14 AM

Your "privileged access to education" evidently left out the presence of how dangerous such people can be to anyone in the US who doesn't meet the WASP criteria.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161715: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:47:01 AM

Kreiger,

I completely agree that uneducated non-elites are dangerous. I'm not being ironic when I say I'm an elitist.

Garcon,

I'm in the top 31% for having a college education. I'm in the top 11% for having a master's degree. When I finish my Ph D I will be in the top 2%.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:49:09 AM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#161716: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:47:20 AM

Most people could get a college education these days. Most people could also read the Scientific American, if they so choose, because the vast majority of us are, in fact, taught to read. The vast majority of people make 40k a year. Also, your qualifications of elitism are both snobby and also arbitrary. You don't have to be a Clinton supporter to enjoy Shakespeare, and just because you voted for Trump doesn't mean you didn't graduate from college. (I think Shakespeare's fucking overrated.)

Garridob, you are common as dirt and not part of the elite. It's like you just decided to brag about things you do and enjoy and decided to use that as a marker, regardless of actual factors that go into what social class a person is.

And I still sort of think you're a troll with the way you're behaving.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:52:17 AM by AceofSpades

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161717: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:48:21 AM

If Trump voters were truly "anti-elite" they wouldn't have voted for a guy and party whose platform and policies overwhelmingly support the 0.1% (and to a lesser extent the 1%) at the expense (literally!) of everyone else.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#161718: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:49:04 AM

The conservative elite may "hate" Trump, but with very few exceptions, they've shown no signs of actually doing anything about it. Some pretended to take a stand when it looked inconvenient to be with him, but then quietly fell back in line, and some can barely conceal their throbbing erections about the kind of destructive legislation they're going to submit for Cinnamon Hitler's rubber stamp of approval. His "establishment" primary opposition fell in line, too.

For all intents and purposes, their part of the elite's hate of Trump looks an awful lot like supporting the guy.


The European far right is seeing popularity for much the same reason as Donnald Trump, but electoral college systems have nothing to do with it (though increasing Russian backing may - Russia is known to support pro-Russia or isolationist movements to get a freer hand to fuck around with their own neighbors), and outside of the Anglosphere, their success is much less likely, and indeed, they just lost in Austria and more conventional conservatives are favored to win over Le Pen, and AFD is far less successful than their counterparts in other parts of Europe.


And this whole college = elite thing is essentially without merit - college education is now common in this country. It is so common that excluding the college educated from being the "common man" makes the "common man" remarkably uncommon for such a moniker.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161719: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:49:17 AM

[up][up][up][up]Go on the site and read. A lot of the people on FSTDT got their ideas from people who are very much part of the elite, by any definition to the term. They are taught what to think by church leaders with significant pull in society and politics, live in extreme comfort and lead churches with large amounts of property.

Is that not elite?

edited 12th Dec '16 1:50:12 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#161720: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:50:21 AM

I wonder what the US has for people who aren't that much into information-based education. I am asking this because if memory serves, part of the reason why Switzerland and in lesser measure Germany have sounder economic systems than the US is because their education systems have better paths for the people that are more adept at work-based education, e.g apprenticeships.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161721: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:51:14 AM

I blame a lot of the problems that ultimately gave us Trump to be rooted in overly romanticized memories and stories of the 1950's.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#161722: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:53:22 AM

@M84: They're anti- the idea of 'elite', which is to say, anti-liberal snob, and anti-the kind of person who tells them how they should live their lives because their old ways are killing the planet/racist/classist/sexist/etc. The 'elite' are people who think they're better than, who think they know more or know better, and that generally means intellectuals - you know, people who do actually know more.

It's been fun.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#161723: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:54:30 AM

So, I'm trying to get what you are saying here.

From what I gather its that you seem to think the population is divided into two categories

'the educated elite' (of whom do you count yourself), which comes off a bit as sounding just a hair away from 'those of better birth'

'the common man' which, from how you describe them, is a polite synonym for 'prole'

You seem to argue that the higher education status of the 'elite' makes them better suited to choosing the right candidate, whereas the prole was to be more swayed by metaphorical blood on the scales during crisis past. In fact, you stated that the proles having a say in deciding government always ends bad.

What I cannot grasp is what your argument is, beyond questionable social theory.

"You can reply to this Message!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161724: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:55:21 AM

[up][up] I guess that was Trump's appeal for some people: "No need to better yourself! You're American! You're Number One!"

Except Trump actually means it.

edited 12th Dec '16 1:55:42 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#161725: Dec 12th 2016 at 1:56:31 AM

Septimus Heap,

In my reading of history, I think you make an excellent point. Common people usually shut up and follow the elites when they feel that they have an opportunity to join the elite some day. The American elite, along with the European elite coming to grips with Brexit, Le Penn, Wilder et al, have not provided that opportunity and the common people are getting restless.

If it's not clear by now, by elite I mean the cultural elite, though that does include most of the economic elite.

The election makes a lot more sense if you think of it as a revolt by the cultural non-elite (championed by uncultured Trump) against the cultured elite. Economic haves and have nots - well, there didn't seem to be a relationship with their voting behaviors and their incomes.

Cultural elites were strongly pro-Hillary. Look at examples like George Will or the entirely conservative Dump Trump movement.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.

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