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IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#161576: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:20:54 PM

No, I mean using those works as, uh... models for new narratives that could work within the context of a democracy. Even if modern culture is too centered on the ideal of The Chosen One, we should think about trying to write and promote stories that work within a democratic mindset instead of a monarchic one.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#161577: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:22:56 PM

That's what makes Hamilton so great a show. It shows the founding of the US for the uncertain, improvised mess it was.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161578: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:23:16 PM

@Julian: That mode of thinking is, in fact, the default mode of human thinking;and it never really left. I'm also not sure what you're proposing we do about it, and while I have no doubt you'll insist otherwise, I can't help but feel like the logical endpoint of this particular mindset about media is some sort of censorship.

Blaming escapist narratives and media for the rise of Trump seems uncomfortably similar to the moral panics seen on the right over video games, Harry Potter, rap music, and so on.

edited 11th Dec '16 4:27:00 PM by CaptainCapsase

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#161579: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:33:43 PM

[up][up] It also has led to the inadvertent glorification from its viewers of a historical figure who supported the Alien & Sedition Acts despite his immigrant background, did not actively participate in abolitionism as much as the man who shot him, and was a huge proponent of the Electoral College which ironically many youthful viewers are now furious at existing.

The thing with Alexander Hamilton and all historical figures to boot is that their media depictions are almost always what their creators and audiences want to see them as.

edited 11th Dec '16 4:35:40 PM by FluffyMcChicken

StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#161580: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:37:14 PM

I still wish there was more we could do than discussion, calling our reps, or even protesting until the next elections.

Do you suppose we're entering into a new sort of cultural revolution to decide between being global and multicultural versus ethnic nationalism? Not just in the U.S. but the world? I had thought we had moved past that point a long time ago, but maybe not? Is this movement nationalists making one last stand?

It's weird to me that the alt-right movement is as strong as it is considering the popular historical narrative, as least from my perspective. I've lived in pretty rural towns, but even there I was always taught how ending slavery, defeating the Nazis, and granting civil rights to all have been triumphs of democracy and human decency. To think that there are THIS many people who still see the Confederacy and Nazi Germany as good things baffles and angers me. What the hell have these people been learning that was different from me?

Right now our side needs some kind of moral victory. The EC not electing Trump would be pretty good. Even if it ends up with Pence as POTUS, I'd still take that over him plus Trump, since Trump was the one people rallied around. If not that, I really want to see NYC run Trump out of town for making them pay for his security. That's bullshit, and New York shouldn't have to take that. Maybe on inauguration day, get a big crowd of people to chant "Fuck Trump." No cutesy rhymes, no feel good slogan. We need something hard, to the point, and angry. No playing nice.

I still believe we've got to stay pissed and not give Trump or the the alt-right any slack. They're bullies and assholes that need to be stood up to. When they attack, don't cower, and don't just sink to making cynical jokes to hide your depression. You've got to really fight, you can't let them get away with anything. We fought too fucking hard to get where we are as a country, especially after all the tragedies the United States has been a part of.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161581: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:37:40 PM

That mode of thinking is, in fact, the default mode of human thinking;and it never really left. I'm also not sure what you're proposing we do about it, and while I have no doubt you'll insist otherwise, I can't help but feel like the logical endpoint of this particular mindset about media is some sort of censorship.

My argument is more...philosophical and critical, than judgmental. I don't think all heroic works are bad (though most of them are, and even when it is good it is still dangerous). I am not reflecting on particular works of art so much as the particular discourse they promote and pass into the culture.

And yes, works of art do promote a myth and narrative and one thing they do is advocate a cult of heroism, which is how Trump views the world. He sees himself as The Hero, his supporters see him as The Hero, and they probably do believe it. Heck f—king Steve Bannon sees himself, a millionaire corporate fat cat of the kind he despises, as a "Leninist" like he's some kind of underground radical.

The fact that Trump can be seen as "anti-establishment" is an example of the danger of that kind of fiction seeping into real-life politics. Because it pivots on an old narrative trope of the establishment being default bad, and anyone opposing him a kind of hero.

I am not preaching censorship of any kind...I am just saying we should all be more careful about using concepts and phrases from heroic narraitves and fantasies, because let's face it we're the bad guys from the perception of Trump Voters. The trope of Equal-Opportunity Evil exists for a reason, because equality and class levelling is associated with evil for most of human history,

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#161582: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:39:30 PM

Please stop implying that people don't learn about economics etc. because they don't care. It's a lot of effort. They aren't educated in the first place. Not by school, not by the media.

I'm not disputing that aspect of it, but I also think that a lot of people just genuinely don't care that much about it or simply aren't interested in those subjects to begin with. A lot of people are content to be passive and ignorant as long as they can put food on the table, so to speak. The complexity of those subjects is just one more lack of incentive.

Destroying the anti-intellectualism in America would help mitigate that a lot however.

edited 11th Dec '16 4:40:40 PM by Draghinazzo

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161583: Dec 11th 2016 at 4:47:08 PM

[up][up] Asking people to rely less on a particular sort of narrative because it indulges in escapist power fantasies is essentially calling for a sort of self-censorship, and in my opinion really not a particularly good use of one's time; while media undoubtedly influences society to an extent, I maintain that the converse is far more significant, and more readily changeable without coercing people into self-censoring via social media harassment.

I doubt that's what you had in mind, but when you say "we need to rely less on this sort of narrative", my first question is "and how do you intend to accomplish that?" Ideals are useless without a plan for implementation.

edited 11th Dec '16 4:49:25 PM by CaptainCapsase

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#161584: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:08:32 PM

@Cap: I think it's less that we need to ban those kinds of stories (I like them as much as the next person) as, we need to start thinking critically about them and what they mean, and realizing that the real world isn't anywhere near that black and white. Comparing the current political climate to, say, Lord of the Rings is one thing, but we can't actually just sit around and wait for a metaphorical Hobbit to show up, defeat evil, and then assume that it's gone forever.

It's been fun.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#161585: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:10:11 PM

If American culture as a whole lent itself more easily to critical thinking and navigating complex questions, you all might not be in this mess.

But that's nothing uniquely american, of course. All of humanity is like that. Our struggle to become better and create a truly great, egalitarian future means that we're constantly fighting against the worst parts of our natures.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161586: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:10:42 PM

[up][up] I'm not sure how you intend to get people to actually do that, more than they already do. It would probably happen naturally as a consequence of a better education system, hence my point about it being a wasted effort at best, and a gateway drug towards authoritarianism at worst.

edited 11th Dec '16 5:11:39 PM by CaptainCapsase

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#161587: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:16:13 PM

I mean, I don't think anyone's suggesting actually taking action against stories. I just think we need more critical thinking skills in general, societally speaking.

It's been fun.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161588: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:17:31 PM

[up] That's not my point; yes, of course we need better critical thinking skills. But talking about the Unfortunate Implications of a particular sort of narrative is looking at a symptom rather than a cure, and we already know what the problem is, more or less.

edited 11th Dec '16 5:18:01 PM by CaptainCapsase

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161589: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:18:18 PM

Criticizing a mentality and a certain way of percieving the world and saying its bad and dangerous is not censorship, it's criticism. And critics have a right to call out what they see as wrong with the world and tell people not to do it. There's nothing censorious about it at all.

And I certainly believe it is applicable because the reality of Donald Trump is that he's a mass media celebrity who used that media and cultural associations to come to power, he promoted illusions, fantasies about consumerism, and other notions which have a fundamental narrative appeal in the United States of America.

As for things having no practical effect...chatting on tvtropes forums doesn't have immediate practical effect either you know. The main practical thing it can achieve is share ideas and perspectives. I am just analyzing and riffing off of stuff that comes to me as I see certain arguments building. Whether people agree or disagree with it, is up to them.

Seeing Trump as The Hero for instance can help you appreciate the mentality of Trump-voters and why people would vote for him...think of the narrative of the hero attacked by bad press and ranting against the media, that's probably how they shrugged of his sexist videos and comments. Think of why is it that so many of them have a loathing towards educated, towards the media and other institutions, towards "political correctness", why do they see us as evil, and themselves and Trump is good. The point isn't to look for the hero or the good in Trump (it doesn't exist in him), the point is to try and understand what has happened that led people to see him that way, and also whether our own heroes in the narratives people construct really good, and whether that mentality of ignoring all the details and simply selling that hero as a commodity is Not So Different.

That's my way of building empathy for Trump voters. I have fallen for heroes in my time, and I can understand the appeal of it, the need and desire for a savior, the belief that people have in that lottery ticket, the self-help books that you are sure will make you smart or win friends and influence people.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161590: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:23:27 PM

[up] I'm aware of the lack of a practical effect to internet discussions, that's not what I'm talking about; I'm taking issue with the focus on something which is clearly a symptom of a much larger problem, not something problematic in and of itself.

Obviously you can criticize stories all you like, there are countless threads for that on this very website, but talking about it on this thread makes it seem (at least to me) like it's being discussed in the context of public policy, and beyond the obvious (improving education, reforming the electoral process to remove the disproportionate impact of poorly educated voters in rural states, and various other things which are fairly incidental to the media), I don't think there's much to be done there.

edited 11th Dec '16 5:31:47 PM by CaptainCapsase

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161591: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:37:40 PM

I actually think that Holding Out for a Hero is the larger problem in America. It's at the heart of the "Lost Cause", at the heart of "white supremacy" and it's at the heart of Conspiracy Theory, the Religious Right, the American Dream, the Ayn Randians, and it damn sure is at the heart of American Exceptionalism. It explains the mentality of Trump-voters and Trump himself, the constant flip-flopping, the mendacity, the shamelessness and so on. If you are The Hero, anything you do is right, or justified, so you don't have to explain yourself, you don't have to think, you don't have to ask questions, and you damn sure don't have to listen to those who tell you otherwise.

The American Dream is that we are all equal and entitled to life, liberty and happiness, which implies that we are all heroes in our own way, an idea I can believe and buy into. Capitalism has translated that to everyone can become a millionaire. The end result is that being a millionaire in America is being a hero. And that's the Ayn Rand attitude.

The "Lost Cause" and white supremacy in America doesn't express itself consciously in that "the white race is superior" or that "Slavery was right"...no it exists in a form of denial. "We weren't fighting for slavery but state's rights" and "I'm not racist but you know African-Americans, women and immigrants don't work as hard as we do...if they did work hard like we do, then maybe they're just like us. I mean look at us, we work hard and build with our own hands and we don't complain..." (denying that the reason they don't complain is that their masters have assured them a heroic destiny by keeping the Orcs in Mordor).

The Conspiracy Theorist for instance always pivots on the idea that the theorist is the Hero and the system and "conspiracy" he opposes is "evil" and anyone who questions that idea is "working for them". This is something you see both in the Left (Who Shot JFK?) and these days on the Right.

Ultimately, as John Ford once sardonically remarked, "America needs heroes".

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161592: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:42:40 PM

[up] That particular attitude isn't remotely unique to America, at least as far as the hero worship goes.

edited 11th Dec '16 5:43:20 PM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#161593: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:45:18 PM

It's endemic to human societies in general, really.

As we have discussed, there's nothing particularly exceptional about America's faults, except for the fact that perhaps it has the biggest ego in spite of those faults.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161594: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:48:15 PM

[up] That's something that's very common in states which are powerful relative to the rest of the global (or regional in earlier periods) community.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161595: Dec 11th 2016 at 5:58:47 PM

In many respects this is actually unique to contemporary America certainly. I mean England and France and Germany don't quite have this unblemished and uncritical attitude about heroism that Americans do.

The English may not have owned up about colonialism to the extent that they should and they glorify Churchill a bit too much for it to be healthy but they certainly do see Alan Turing, Darwin and other artists as being more heroic than say Duke of Wellington or Warren Hastings. In America that attitude is not there. France has suffered many national defeats and bad memories about Occupation and collaboration, and even then it has a messy baggage about heroism since the kind of people who come close are guys like Napoleon, Robespierre, Old French Kings, neither of whom are entirely consensual or free of baggage. Jeanne d'Arc. Jeanne is properly the only consensual figure, and a special exception...even Charles de Gaulle is controversial there despite all the good he did. As for Germany...well they almost never make politicians and generals heroes any more. They prefer being the land of Dichter and Denker.

Americans have never evinced a special ability to look inside themselves and confront the reality of its foundations. And that's a major problem, and a deeply dangerous one. There were moments where they could have done that. The Vietnam War was a major time when you had Americans question the idea of heroism, and what that means, and how the myth of it leads them to do terrible things. Songs like "Fortunate Son" and so on. Then Reagan came and made them forget and told them "Don't ask questions".

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#161596: Dec 11th 2016 at 6:04:02 PM

I think you'll find that only certain sections of the UK hold up Churchill. To most people he's considered a bit of an arse.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#161597: Dec 11th 2016 at 6:09:53 PM

[up][up] Trump's imitators all over the globe attracting similar cult followings seems to suggest this may no longer be isolated to America, if it ever was.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#161598: Dec 11th 2016 at 6:12:09 PM

US brand of heroism is not surprising at all, the country is ex colony after all and like many ex colonies, the narrative focus on a small band of people try to fend up and eventually defeat the empire, in this case the british empire.

This "Small underdog against the evil establishment" is pretty much the favorite narrative EVERYONE in america used: the lost cause, the civil right moment, the whole "religious freedom" thing and so on.

What Trump did was take this narrative to the point everyone overlook is flaws(which are too many to count here), right now America have become the Trump show where he is the start, the writer, the director and...everything else.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Lennik (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#161599: Dec 11th 2016 at 6:20:00 PM

I don't see how anyone can claim epic fantasy is conservative just because Trump voters think he's a hero. That's reductive. Barack Obama had the same narrative surrounding him in 2008, just on the other side of the political spectrum. If you claim epic fantasy is conservative just because it features The Hero fighting the system, you're using a very specific and not at all universal interpretation of conservatism. The hero narrative is a human narrative, and that's why it shows up in politics. Sometimes it shows up in conservative politics, and sometimes it shows up in liberal politics. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

edited 11th Dec '16 6:22:23 PM by Lennik

That's right, boys. Mondo cool.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#161600: Dec 11th 2016 at 6:25:03 PM

Anyone who actually tries to claim that is using the Hitler Ate Sugar fallacy.

[down] I agree, I think it's it's less about American culture and more a confluence of things like the EC system.

edited 11th Dec '16 6:37:55 PM by AlleyOop


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