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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#161251: Dec 9th 2016 at 10:01:57 AM

[up][up][up][up]Then your electoral system is either broken or simply evil. Either way, why respect it?

Something that needs to be kept in mind is that the United States Constitution has been continually in effect, at least on paper, for well over 200 years. It's been amended in the interim years of course, but the core has remained the same.

While this does mean it's horribly outdated in certain ways, it also means that simply disregarding it is unthinkable in the most literal sense of the term for many Americans. In the American psyche disregarding the Constitution in such a significant manner would be like disregarding gravity, it's just not something that can be done.

And to be clear, I am not defending the electoral college. I think it's a horribly outdated system that needs to be abolished ASAP. I am simply explaining that disregarding the results is something that cannot happen without an unprecedented cultural shift in how America views the government on a base level.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161252: Dec 9th 2016 at 10:09:19 AM

Look, the Constitution never intended to give women the vote, POC the vote, and it tolerated slavery as well at its conception. So it's not a surprise it included a system like Electoral College.

Also remember that the Founding Fathers were a bunch of "classical liberals"...their idea of populist demagogue is precisely someone who says "let's free the slaves, give all men and women the vote regardless of race, class and religion." The reason the likes that an aristocrat like Hamilton hated the French Revolution is because those wild crazy Jacobins were the ones who were doing just that and globally speaking, modern democracy resembles the Jacobins' conception of democracy more than that of the Founding Fathers. They were the ones who invented "one man, one vote" and that codified democracy for the whole world and even in America...since most of the time, the winner of the popular vote won the EC and 30 of 50 states have signed the Popular Vote Compact by which electors are obligated to vote for the candidate who won the Pop. Vote.

The fact is American democracy has changed drastically since then, has had to change to keep up with the times, and the EC is a dangerous weed from the past blocking progress. It creates political polarization, especially with all these demographic shifts. Remember that many suburban residents in rural areas are descendants of "white flight", i.e. white city-dwellers who no longer wanted to be neighbours with black folks and others in a new multicultural America from the 60.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#161253: Dec 9th 2016 at 10:10:50 AM

@Tactical: Mostly newspaper reports and the like. There has been a fair amount of commentary in this thread, too, that the atmosphere in Congress has been rather unfriendly the past 8 years.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#161254: Dec 9th 2016 at 10:24:04 AM

[up] "Rather unfriendly" is like saying that the temperature at the South Pole in the dead of winter is "rather chilly."

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161255: Dec 9th 2016 at 10:24:54 AM

[up] With climate change, that might not be a very apt comparison for much longer...

edited 9th Dec '16 10:25:15 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#161256: Dec 9th 2016 at 10:29:49 AM

For much longer. The East Antarctic Ice Sheet will last for long - you need a huge increase of greenhouse gases to trigger its melting. If not, it'd be too late/too bad to do anything about it anyway.

edited 9th Dec '16 10:31:02 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#161257: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:07:09 AM

@Julian Lapostat

American democracy has changed a lot over the years, but it's always been either through the Amendment process that's baked into the actual Constitution, excising the powers granted by the Constitution in a different manner, or new rights being interpreted from the wording of the Constitution.

I am very specifically addressing the question of why it's impossible to simply disregard the EC vote for this election in the here and now. In spite of the fact Hillary beat Trump by over 2 million votes and that Trump is a truly atrocious person. If we want to ditch the EC (and I very much do) then there is a process that we need to go through to make it happen.

I am not saying it's right that Trump (short of some improbable circumstances) is the next President or that the electoral college is still a thing, I'm saying that it is.

Shippudentimes Since: Dec, 2012
#161258: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:16:01 AM

It's official. Obama has now ordered an investigative report into possible Russian hacking involvement in the election.

"We may have crossed a new threshold here,"' Lisa Monaco, one of Mr. Obama's closest aides and the former head of the national security division of the Justice Department, told reporters Friday. "He expects to receive this report before he leaves office."

The report, according to senior administration officials, will trace the attacks on the Democratic National Committee and on prominent individuals like John D. Podesta, the chairman of Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign.

But it is unclear that the contents of the report will be made public. Intelligence agencies and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which still has an active investigation of the hacking underway, have been reluctant to make public any of their findings, they fear it will reveal sources and methods of how the incursions were traced back to Russia.

Just that last concluding paragraph alone is chilling enough in a sea of frozen shitstorm of this election.

edited 9th Dec '16 11:17:15 AM by Shippudentimes

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161259: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:19:13 AM

We all know that the EC is a thing and we all know that saying its absurd won't make it not a reality for the next election. The point remains however, that it is fundamentally absurd and this election margin makes it more absurd than ever and we must never pretend otherwise. A popular vote margin of 2.5 million coming in second is a f—king disgrace and blight on America's institutions, because it has failed to represent its people. Donald Trump might have won the election by a legal fluke, but he is not representative of the wide majority of the American people. George W. Bush could be called representative since the first election he lost by a small margin (and a dubious SC decision) and the second election he won the Popular vote, but Trump is not representative, and should never be regarded as being so, at least not in the domain where the legal fiction of the rituals of American democracy must be observed.

Basically thanks to the demographic divide of towns and cities and partisanship (which Trump's election will increase not reduce) the chances of this EC-Pop Vote divide happening will increase in regularity, the fact that it happened twice in 16 years is a trend in that direction.

And the fact that amending the constitution is hard does not make it impossible. We have Amar's Nation Popular Vote Compact which can bypass the Constitution, where the target is to get 270 Electors to swear they will always choose the winner of the Popular Vote. 30 states have already signed up for that, but alas thanks to different states getting proportional electors, it doesn't match up to 270. We must in any case fight on multiple fronts, insist on the unrepresented popular vote defeated majority, push for the Compact, and try and build a groundswell to amend the EC out of the Constitution forever.

[up] The FBI being in on the investigation is not a point of reassurance, IMHO.

edited 9th Dec '16 11:20:30 AM by JulianLapostat

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#161260: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:31:05 AM

Not after Comey's BS

edited 9th Dec '16 11:31:14 AM by sgamer82

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#161261: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:31:51 AM

It seems to me that getting rid of winner takes all is a more realistic goal than getting rid of the EC altogether. And it would still dramatically reduce the chances of an EC-popular vote split.

Though, depending on how it's implemented, it may also mean that third parties might end up getting a small number of votes from the more populous states, dramatically increasing the chance of no candidate getting 270. Make of that what you will.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#161262: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:43:11 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161263: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:44:05 AM

The careful incremental fixes added to the EC is more or less paving the way for direct Pop. Vote election. If it's a useful fiction to get the neanderthal red states to agree to, then okay push it.

Like I said, we need to wage simultaneous campaigns to get rid of the EC. The Compact has to be sold to enough states that 270 Electors almost always votes for the Pop. vote winner, amendments to rid it altogether needs to have a groundswell campaign, and at the same time reform proposals to get rid of "Winner Take All" so that the GOP-in-Dem States, and the Dem-in-GOP States don't go unrepresented.

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#161264: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:48:11 AM

[up][up][up]The most likely outcome of a proportional EC split is to slant it more heavily towards the Republicans. The Democrats would lose big chunks of California and New York in return for smaller chunks of Texas and a few other states. The Republicans still have solid locks on a huge number of states overall and would also bite large chunks out of blue states; based on this election's breakdown, a snap judgement would put the Republicans north of 280 EC votes, with no chance of of flipping clusters in battleground states like Florida and Ohio that would split around 50/50. Because of the cap on Representatives, Democratic strongholds like California and New York would be bleeding far more votes than would be gained in the South and Midwest-and the overall favoring of more states to lean Republican will make that worse through Senate votes. The only way to redress that is to remove the cap on the House or incorporate all of the territories as states with the transparent goal of adding blocks of mostly Democratic voters to rebalance rural America' influence-and that will not happen as long as the Republicans have one of the White House, Senate, House, or 17 State Legislatures.

edited 9th Dec '16 11:55:26 AM by ViperMagnum357

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161265: Dec 9th 2016 at 11:53:30 AM

Yeah, lawyersgunandmoney made the same point.

Amar's Compact and direct amendments are the only way to go. We can't amend the system so that one party, be it Democrat and Republican gets a disproportionate advantage.

A popular vote system won't necessarily favor Dems over Republicans in and of itself, but it would prevent absurd situations like what just happened in 2016.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#161266: Dec 9th 2016 at 12:27:20 PM

@White Flight: compare and contrast with Gentrification, when rich white people like being around you so much they blow your rent through the sky. Compare and contrast West Side Story with In The Heights.

It's amazing how much mileage Lin-Manuel can get out of those 96G.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#161267: Dec 9th 2016 at 12:36:39 PM

People have pointed this out before but something just occurred to me:

Trump is the first Republican in a while that in no way gave a shit about paying lip service to the Religious Right. Mike Pence might be one of them but Trump's base certainly wouldn't rally around him.

This means that going forward, there is a precedent for Republicans to not have to placate their views, including the idea that evolution is a heresy or that the gays are evil. For all of his other bigotry Trump didn't really make a big deal out of "hating them evil gays" or "marriage should be between a man and a woman". I don't recall him ever being asked about evolution either.

Unfortunately I feel like the trade-off for that is that they have to even more open in courting white nationalism, so it's not much of a comfort, and I feel like a candidate running on that platform probably isn't going to give much of a shit about evolution OR LGBT rights either way.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#161268: Dec 9th 2016 at 1:06:36 PM

The Religious Right is primarily guided by a messianic belief in white supremacy and a hatred against anything that challenges that, especially "those people" (to use the phrase that their Saint Robert E. Lee the slave-torturer, used to describe his enemies). All their weird causes and beliefs revolves around that.

So Donald Trump does not have to "come to Jesus" because by proclaiming hatred towards Muslims and Mexicans, supporting white supremacy, and being a flagrant misogynist, he's already doing "God's work". Remember also that Trump's evil chancellor Steve Bannon is a lunatic who talked about defending Judeo-Christian civilization, and that Mike Pence and Betsy Devos are both theocrats, with Devos being a Theocratic Oligarch.

Trump like the Nazis is backed by conservative Christianity. The Catholics and Protestants like to whitewash their history so that they forget stuff like Reichskonkordat and basically try to reverse the demonization of Pius XII with a reverse-hagiography in all distortion of facts, but some of us know the truth.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#161270: Dec 9th 2016 at 3:45:30 PM

Pretty much. I've said over and over again, the religious right is simply code for White Supremacy and maintaining it. Sure some of them care about abortion and gay marriage, but so long as white race remains on top, the lot of them could give less of a fuck.

New Survey coming this weekend!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#161271: Dec 9th 2016 at 4:40:14 PM

Maybe the Religious Right with capital R's, but the majority of bigoted hardcore religious people I've met in my personal life have been majority Asian actually, with the occasional black and white person here and there. Though there may be some underlying racism with the belief that being Christian (and therefore Westernized) is the only way to be "civilized".

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#161272: Dec 9th 2016 at 4:57:53 PM

Breaking: Secret CIA Assessment Says Russia Was Trying To Help Trump Win White House.

This is kind of one of those "water is wet" revelations at this point, but the more this is gotten out into the open, the better.

Can we have a do-over yet? Of, like, all of 2016?

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#161273: Dec 9th 2016 at 5:01:06 PM

[up] Now, we just need special forces troops to secure a hard drive hidden away in a exotic locale containing detailed records of meeting between GOP officials and SVR agents.

This entire election has played out like some sort of speculative political thriller novel.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#161274: Dec 9th 2016 at 5:01:23 PM

I mean, the Trump transition team met with some of Putin's people IIRC.

There's "circumstancial evidence", and there's enough circumstancial evidence that it no longer looks circumstancial.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#161275: Dec 9th 2016 at 5:06:08 PM

I do still think this report is a pretty damn major development, though - because it specifically states that Russia's intention was to place Trump in the White House, not just interfere with the electoral system and undermine voter confidence. They weren't just trying to screw with us, they had a very specific goal in mind. A goal that they accomplished.

Now - yoo hoo? Government? Shouldn't this be a reason to maybe think twice about making Trump president? I know we got all excited in '08 when we elected the first black president and we want to make history again - but electing the first Russian president is taking things a bit too far.

Seriously. The transition of power needs to be halted immediately until we've officially gotten to the bottom of this. Time's running out.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."

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