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CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#161001: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:10:07 AM

"I can't really agree with this sentiment. Slavery hypocrisy aside, one of America's first and highest ideals is "All men are created equal". Saying not all states are equally feels to me like being just one step away from declaring not all people are equal."

Well, "all men are created equal" is one of the many polite fictions that form the bedrock of American civilization. All men are patently not created equal because the circumstances of their birth — when, where, and to whom — hugely define its future trajectory. Ideals mean nothing if the reality not only falls short, but contradicts them. Take the Electoral College, the topic at hand. When one Californian EV is worth many times as many voters as one Wyomingite EV, all men are not created equal. By virtue of being a Californian, you are worth that much less in the national sphere.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#161002: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:16:45 AM

The sentiment just rubbed me the wrong way. An ideal, to me, is something you try to hold to even if reality isn't feeling cooperative. Hell, isn't that part of the reason we can Republicans ideologues?

While this next bit may be false equivalence, I can't help but feel had the situation been reversed (Trump won popular but lost electoral) a lot of people currently denouncing the college would be praising it. So calls to abolish or reform it aren't resonating with me because, rightly or wrongly, the sentiments after coming off tainted by the "my guy didn't win" blues.

I grasp that there are serious and legitimate reasons to pursue it, but can't help but think it ain't happening on the heels of an election.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:17:04 AM by sgamer82

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#161003: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:22:13 AM

If the situation was reversed, people would be deeply troubled about what Trump winning the popular vote implies about the nation, regardless of him not becoming President.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#161004: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:24:26 AM

That's not mutually exclusive to my point.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#161005: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:25:27 AM

I mean, treating all states as equal is automatically not treating all people as equal. Unless all 50 states had equal population, giving all states equal treatment will always mean giving the people in the more populous states lesser treatment.

And the idea that that shouldn't be is, in fact, already baked into the system. The only place where all 50 states are weighted equally is the Senate. Everywhere else, it's weighted. Four states have almost 25% of EC vote, for example.

And really, why should all states be weighted equally? Lots of states borders exist largely because of historical stuff that doesn't matter anymore, with little to no actual cultural distinction between one side of the border and the other.

StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#161006: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:32:15 AM

I think Pizzagate is the dumbest thing to come out of this freakshow. The fact that a guy shot up a pizza joint with an automatic rifle and was not promptly shot to death on sight by police really irritates me. If you're white, you can get away with borderline terrorism, but god help you if you're a black guy just running away from the cops.

Misinformation is proving to be a huge goddamn problem, as we've all been expressing. If people want to believe something, they will without question, and even if they want to investigate more into, they're going to only look within their own bubble of misinformation, so they never even give themselves the chance to see they might be wrong. People just assumed the pizza place had a child sex dungeon, and only listened to other nutty conspiracy theorists. Even if Clinton was proven innocent, it didn't matter because no one paid attention to the investigation. Once they heard that she might have been up to something shady, that's all they needed.

It doesn't matter to these people how much proof there is that they're wrong, because it's so easy for them to ignore the proof. No one needs to prove anything to make people believe false rumors. This is why shit like Holocaust denial and the idea that vaccines cause autism continues to persist. Doesn't help much that the media will make a big deal about the false rumor but does little to sensationalize the evidence which proves it wrong.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:34:18 AM by StarOutlaw

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161007: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:32:34 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up]Well, about that...

Fake news played a bigger role in this past presidential election than ever seen before. And sometimes it has had serious repercussions for real people and businesses.

That's what happened to a pizzeria in Washington, D.C., recently, when an armed man claiming to be "self-investigating" a fake news story entered the restaurant and fired off several rounds.

But once a fake news story is out there, and the harm has been done, what can a person do about it?

Derigan Silver, a professor of media, First Amendment and Internet law at the University of Denver, tells NPR's Audie Cornish that victims of fake news stories have legal recourse under defamation law.

"Fake news sites are clearly a situation where they're engaging in a defamatory statement, a false statement about another that damages that person's reputation," Silver says. "In that situation, that is certainly actionable."

Interview Highlights

On the legal recourse for victims of fake news stories

So in most of these situations, the person that has been harmed is going to bring a lawsuit that we call a tort. Now a tort is a noncontractual harm between two private individuals. It's a civil lawsuit, where you're alleging that one person harmed another. ...

So anytime one private individual harms another private individual, you can bring a lawsuit for a tort. So one of those torts that people can have advantage of is called defamation. Defamation is a tort that alleges that a communication damaged your reputation.

On who's accountable for fake news stories

They can hold accountable anybody who has communicated the defamatory statement to anybody else. That includes the person who originated the defamatory statement, but under something called the republication rule, it also includes anybody who repeated the defamatory statement. Now simply retweeting a defamatory statement is probably not going to be enough to qualify for republication, but passing on information that you heard from somebody else certainly is republication.

So you have some cases coming out of Texas, for example, where hundreds and hundreds of people were adding to a posting that had more and more and more defamatory contents. And if you can track those people down, if you can find out those identities, then yes, you can sue every single person who sort of adds to that defamatory statement or repeats that defamatory statement.

On the challenges of filing defamation lawsuits

That's one of the problems with defamation law is once the information is out there, is monetary damages really what they want to recover? And should they have to be able to pay lawyers [$400], $500 an hour in order to recover their good name from a story that is clearly made up and clearly fictitious and clearly has no basis in reality at all?

On the current debate over defamation laws

I think that fake news really has kind of all set us back a little bit. One of the ideas behind the First Amendment is that we believe in something called the marketplace of ideas: that if you let "truthhood" and falsity battle in the marketplace of ideas, that truth will eventually win, that we have an assumption that people are rational, and they can determine truth from falsity.

And that's kind of making us rethink these kind of basic premises behind freedom of expression. Are we in a situation now where truth no longer matters, and people are not able to sort these things out?

Other people say, you know, the idea that truth is always going to win is idle sentimentality. The reason we have freedom of expression is not because truth will always win, but because without freedom of expression, truth has no chance of winning whatsoever.

And so this has been a really challenging election for a lot of people who believe in free speech, and media law has actually come up a lot in this election, and it's something that a lot of us are thinking deeply about.

The problem is that you probably would have to start breaking down office walls with explosives (preferably with a warrant first) to be able to track down the people at the keyboards spreading these conspiracy theories (Describing Pizzagate as "fake news" undermines the severity of what's going on IMO). Reddit, Facebook and Twitter have denied being responsible for the size of the platform these conspiracy peddlers have on their sites. The chans, Voat and Gab (or whatever Twitter for Voat users is actually called) are nonstarters. Moot had standards Hiroyuki does not have.

If you ask me, there is one precedent. The cast and crew is the same. The set is the same. The script is almost the same.

If it's any consolation, DC residents aren't buying any of this shit. Much like Sweden, Germany, France and Birmingham, the locals know the truth.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:33:09 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#161008: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:35:02 AM

"While this next bit may be false equivalence, I can't help but feel had the situation been reversed (Trump won popular but lost electoral) a lot of people currently denouncing the college would be praising it."

It would be a cold comfort — I, personally, would be looking over my shoulder for Trumpist lynch mobs if he was denied an EC win after securing the popular vote.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#161009: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:37:24 AM

Borderwise and culturally, you could split the US into 9 different provinces.

West Coast (Oregon-Washington-California-Nevada-Hawaii )

New England

Rust Belt (Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio)

Old South coast (southern east coast states)

New South (former parts of the Confederacy not touching the east coast)

Northern Middle America (everything between Idaho and North and South Dakota)

Southwest (Arizona, Colorado, Texas, New Mexico)

Utah

Alaska

edited 8th Dec '16 11:42:18 AM by MadSkillz

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#161010: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:47:25 AM

[up]Where would Pennsylvania fit in? We're not really part of New England, and you've left us out of the Rust Belt.

In fact, you've left out quite a few states.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:49:29 AM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#161011: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:48:20 AM

Neither is New York.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#161012: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:51:33 AM

Why a Democrat voted for Trump

Am I the only one here baffled by the logic, here?

New Survey coming this weekend!
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#161013: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:54:51 AM

There's no logic present there - only barely-disguised bigotry. Apparently us minorities aren't "everyday Americans." I wonder what her definition of an "everyday American" is?

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#161014: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:55:42 AM

I mean, I've yet to hear a convincing argument from anyone why voting Trump was a good idea, so I kind of find it automatically baffling.

But it's a familiar refrain- being anti-establishment and kind of racist are a common themes among Trump voters.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161015: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:58:00 AM

One of the stupidest things about that bullshit pizza thing is that the restaurant didn't even have a fucking basement!

[up] Something...something...coal...something...something...he's a wild card businessman so maybe he can handle himself internationally (complete BS of course)...but the most important thing is that he just makes them feel good about themselves.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:59:49 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#161016: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:58:35 AM

[up][up][up][up]The dictionary definition of White Upper Class Privilege?

At least it's more obviously dumb than why I wound up needing to point out that the Marine One replacement program had to be restarted from scratch after burning $3 billion.

Donald Trump supporters 'threaten children of Carrier union boss' after he exposed false claim by President-elect

'You better keep your eye on your kids — we’re coming for you,' head of workers association told

Supporters of Donald Trump have threatened a workers' union boss and his children after he criticised the President-elect for making false claims about a business deal.

Chuck Jones, leader of the 1999 steelworkers union, attracted the President-elect’s attention after he said the billionaire had “lied his ass off” about coming to an agreement that saved 1,100 American jobs at an air conditioning company called Carrier.

Mr Jones said the deal only kept 800 jobs in the US – with hundreds jobs positions relocating to Mexico – and that it was in exchange for $7m (£5.5m) in tax breaks across the next decade.

The union leader has said Mr Trump overstated the job savings of the deal and he had raised the hopes of workers, who would still see their positions shipped out of the country.

Following Mr Jones’ remarks, Mr Trump took to Twitter to criticise him, saying he had “done a terrible job” and that he should “spend more time working" and "less time talking”.

But within an hour of Mr Trump tweeting his remarks, the union boss said he started to receive threatening phone calls.

“You better keep your eye on your kids, we’re coming for you, we know what car you drive, things like that,” he told MSNBC.

Yet he said was not phased by the harassment, telling the network he had “been doing this job for 30 years, and heard everything from people who want to burn my house down or shoot me.”

He added that he is “not concerned about it and I’m not getting anybody involved. I can deal with people that make stupid statements and move on.”

Mr Jones also told NBC News he took the President-elect’s remarks as a compliment: “I tried to correct some of his math, and he took exception to it.

“For him to say I'm a horrible labor leader, I take it as a positive because that must mean that we're doing something so people can earn a decent living wage-wise and benefit-wise.”

The dispute underlines fundamental differences between union leaders – such as Mr Jones – and some union workers who voted for Mr Trump in the belief that he would protect American jobs.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:59:20 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#161017: Dec 8th 2016 at 12:00:35 PM

A few dozen pages back someone (can't recall who) posted an article observing that exact bizarre fallacy that woman seems to hold. The strange notion that the stantard guy has to be a white guy. It has to be "regular joe", not "Regular José", "Regular Wang Park", so forth.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#161019: Dec 8th 2016 at 12:02:34 PM

[up]x8 That's dumb, but I don't think says that she's a Democrat? She says that she doesn't align with either party, actually.

edited 8th Dec '16 12:02:57 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#161020: Dec 8th 2016 at 12:03:15 PM

It seems like white people in the USA are suddenly realizing that they might not be a majority for much longer. They won't be the "default" anymore — they'll be just another minority. I guess some of them can't handle that.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#161021: Dec 8th 2016 at 12:05:29 PM

I wonder why white people are so scared of being a minority? What do we treat minorities bad in this country or something?

New Survey coming this weekend!
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#161022: Dec 8th 2016 at 12:05:51 PM

@M84: See, I don't see why a businessmen would be expected to handle diplomacy better than a diplomat. And I certainly don't see why voting for a man like him would make one feel good, rather than ashamed. So that's still in the category of stuff I illogical.

Like, 'he says he wants to bring back coal' is the only thing that comes close to me, because I understand why somebody who offers you something you want, even if they're not trustworthy, is more appealling than someone who says it'll never happen. But, y'know, plenty of red states aren't made up entirely of coal mining towns.

[up][up]Of course, 'minority' will be an even more meaningless term once that happens- if everyone is a minority, nobody is.

edited 8th Dec '16 12:06:55 PM by Gilphon

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#161023: Dec 8th 2016 at 12:06:03 PM

A few dozen pages back someone (can't recall who) posted an article observing that exact bizarre fallacy that woman seems to hold. The strange notion that the stantard guy has to be a white guy. It has to be "regular joe", not "Regular José", "Regular Wang Park", so forth.

Yeah. And that attitude right there is half the reason we're in this mess - and causes half the racism and bigotry present in every layer of our society. That idea that people who aren't white, aren't native-born, aren't Christian, aren't straight, aren't cis - will never be "real Americans." They'll always be "the other," the abnormal. "Why are you talking about black people when you should be talking about Americans?" people ask, completely ignorant of how outrageously offensive the words coming out of their mouths are.

edited 8th Dec '16 12:06:24 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#161024: Dec 8th 2016 at 12:07:01 PM

As a person familiar with Chinese history, I can't but think that the Republicans by all means are finding merit in using their most fanatical supporters as, ironically enough, Red Guards to terrorize or harass political opponents.


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