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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160976: Dec 8th 2016 at 8:13:12 AM

It's almost fitting that America's middle class is slowly vanishing, since it's a country of extremes. When it's good, it's great. When it's bad, it's...well, look at our President-elect.

For America to truly be great, we ironically enough need to eat a lot of Humble Pie first.

I just wish our slice of pie wasn't spray-tanned and coated with cheap gold paint.

edited 8th Dec '16 8:17:41 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#160977: Dec 8th 2016 at 8:41:04 AM

[up] Somehow, I don't think we'll be able to stomach such a large piece of Humble Pie now. If we had started on it earlier, and taken smaller bites over time, we might have been able to do it. Instead, we're far more likely to get it lodged in our collective throat and either cough it out and launch it to the ground, or choke to death on it.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160978: Dec 8th 2016 at 8:54:20 AM

[up] If this all ends with Trump covered in vomit, I think I'd be satisfied. evil grin

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#160979: Dec 8th 2016 at 8:57:30 AM

I'm never satisfied.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#160980: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:08:41 AM

Serious question: people are making a big deal out of Clinton winning the popular vote, but outside of the sheer scale she won by, is it actually relevant?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but regardless of the reason why it's the case, the Electoral College, by design, reflects the popular vote on a state by state basis.

So yes, Clinton won the overall popular vote and did so by a huge if not unprecedented scale, but does it matter when it sounds like she only got it in places she did, in fact, win electorally and, thus, is unlikely to flip a state's electoral votes?

edited 8th Dec '16 9:10:00 AM by sgamer82

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#160981: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:12:56 AM

As I understand it it's seen as a symbolic victory for the decent people in this country, because it means that the vast majority of U.S. citizens rejected Trump and what he stood for. It may be a cold comfort going forward, but it's something.

I mean, screw just the EC, I'm saying it - Clinton lost because the game was rigged. Crosscheck along probably cost her the election, to say nothing of Russian meddling, other methods of voter suppression, conveniently uncounted ballots, and fucking Comey.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#160982: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:14:32 AM

It matters because winning, for example, 50% plus one of Wyoming's vote is trivially easy — they barely scratch 500K in population. Winning the East Coast and West Coast metropolitan areas that Hillary did requires more voters, and it represents a majority of the people in the country who contribute more, economically, than the rest of the country. It matters because one Wyoming EV is worth five times as much as a Californian EV, while Wyoming possesses 1/70 the population of California.

Trump sailed into the White House on the remnants of oligarchy and slave power, not on popular appeal, which does not give him a democratic mandate to dismantle everything supported by a majority of the populace. There is hard power and soft power, but the latter matters.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Jetyl The Dev Cat from my apartment Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The Dev Cat
#160983: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:16:10 AM

[up][up][up] except, EC in each state is a FTTP system, meaning a state with 51-49 divide goes 100% to the guy who one 51%. and a LOT of states were that close.

edited 8th Dec '16 9:17:05 AM by Jetyl

I'm afraid I can't explain myself, sir. Because I am not myself, you see?
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#160984: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:16:48 AM

[up][up][up][up]It matters only in the sense that it is a demonstration of how flawed our electoral system, that a candidate can receive more votes by such a large margin and still not be elected. Theoretically the results could be even more lopsided,due to how electoral votes are weighted.

You might see more movements to get rid of the Electoral College and more general electoral reform, but it's unlikely to happen in the near future.

edited 8th Dec '16 9:18:21 AM by Mio

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160985: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:21:28 AM

Serious question: people are making a big deal out of Clinton winning the popular vote, but outside of the sheer scale she won by, is it actually relevant?

It's extremely relevant. The sheer scale she won by is the big story...the previous times when candidates won EC but lost the Popular Vote, it was always by a small margin. Here she won by a whopping 2.5 million plus votes (and counting). That essentially damages the legitimacy of the US electoral system permanently because it means that the candidate in charge is not truly representative of the country.

So yes, Clinton won the overall popular vote and did so by a huge if not unprecedented scale, but does it matter when it sounds like she only got it in places she did, in fact, win electorally and, thus, is unlikely to flip a state's electoral votes?

Well not all states are equal. Some states are small and tiny rural bases, while others have huge populations and contribute more to the economy. The EC might represent the rights of small states over large states but in practise it holds the Federal Government hostage to the interests of a bunch of farmer aristocrats (in the original Athenian sense).

MysteryMan23 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#160986: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:39:31 AM

My thinking on the matter is that the popular vote is so important because it's a sign that we shouldn't give up the fight yet. The fact that so many more people voted for Clinton over Trump is a sign that America isn't as irredeemable as it might seem given this election. And as Crimson Zephyr has said, it means Trump lacks a real mandate to do what he wants. That gives us Trump opponents something we can work with, at least.

But most importantly, it's a potential reason not to give up hope. I've noticed a lot of people seem to want such a reason before they're willing to start hoping again.

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#160987: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:50:37 AM

In a realpolitik sense the PV doesn't matter. Trump doesn't give a fuck as he's not coming back for a second term and the GOP is just a tool for him. Likewise the GOP can push through whatever next level crazy shit and the populace will stick it on trump, not them. They get to ruin the country and get reelected at a rate of 90%. If the GOP decides to go nuclear they will literally be untouchable.

buuut a moral victory is important. Bernie or his anointed one in 2020 can run on how rigged the game is that the person with more votes (2.7 and rising as of last tally) can lose hard. In 2020 democrats will be the party of anger and anger gets people to the polls.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160988: Dec 8th 2016 at 9:56:49 AM

The thing is in America there seems to be a desire to see validation in winning, regardless of how it was won and what it means.

So Donald Trump winning the EC is seen as somehow vindicating his strategy and his constituency which can only be accomplished by ignoring everything else. You can say that the bottom line is that Trump won...but if you take that attitude, then that means bottom line white people exceed blacks and minorities, deal with it...on that level bottomline might as well be borderline (as in the mentality disorder).

Trump is a phenomenally lucky individual. We must acknowledge that. Bad individuals can be lucky too, and they don't have to do a damn thing to earn it. They're just born with a special luck that gets them everything they want (I always wondered why Trump used "You Can't Always Get What You Want" in his campaigns, because he is the guy who has always gotten what he wanted). Trump ran a bad campaign, on bad ideas, poor strategy and no policy, and yet he was lucky to win. He benefited because of a weak Republican Primary field, the fact that the mainstream GOP is just as bad/if not worse/than he is. He benefited because the GOP had been running a Mccarthyite campaign against the Clintons since the 90s, and had submitted her to the Benghazi investigations (a move almost certainly designed to sabotage her candidacy) which was basically a joke since she was blameless. Then you had the emails scandal, a total nothingburger, which they had no grounds to charge her with. Then of course Hillary was a woman, and most Americans don't want a woman in charge.

Hillary winning the Popular Vote and losing the Election regardless is symbolic of the fact that the majority of Americans are losers and suffered defeat not against actual popular sentiment (such as Reaganism), or genuine economic problems (which Carter's administration oversaw while Obama's did not), but simply to blind luck and revanchist rage.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#160989: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:00:15 AM

I really do wonder how the Republican Party will act now that Trump is President, especially if they lose big in 2018. Normally, the President shapes the Party, as Reagan, LBJ and FDR did, but there have been times, especially in the 1800's, where the Party rejects the President's vision and either kicks him out (John Tyler, Theodore Roosevelt and Andrew Johnson) or just completely ignores him (Andrew Johnson specifically). The Republican Party really is at a crossroads right now; they can either descend down the road of Nationalism, White 'Identitarianism' and Insanity, and get immediate results that permanently ruin them later, or they can ignore Trump's vision, stay the course of Reaganism and Neo-Conservatism, make themselves unappealing to everyone now, but fix themselves down the line to be vote-able for the next generations. So far, it seems like the Republican Party, at least in Congress, will mostly ignore Trump, but we'll have to actually see what happens in the next 2-4 years...

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#160990: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:08:24 AM

@Dingo They've already been informed that the party of Reagan is dead and that it's now the party of Trump but that it still hasn't sunk in for some of them.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160991: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:10:53 AM

[up] I hope that when it does, they choke on it. Hey, if the rest of us have to endure Trump being shoved down our throats...

edited 8th Dec '16 10:11:34 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#160992: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:11:28 AM

@thatguythere47: But can we maintain that anger for at least four years? The human brain can only keep up the production of anger-neurotransmitters for so long before anger turns to apathy. I don't know how the Republicans managed to keep it going for eight years. Perhaps there are some slight biological differences between liberals and conservatives that Republicans (unknowingly?) are successfully managing to manipulate?

If anything, I'd say we can expect the voter apathy problem to get even worse, as people (like myself) sink into depression and give up any hope of redeeming the system that gave an unstable con artist like Trump all-but-absolute-power.

[up][up][up] IIRC, the Democrats are going to be defending far more Congressional seats in 2018 than the Republicans are. Even if the Democrats sweep, I don't think it really can be called a big loss for the GOP, especially if they can come up with a plan to stop the Democrats' momentum (and, judging by their history, they probably will) come 2020.

edited 8th Dec '16 10:11:52 AM by TrashJack

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#160993: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:14:00 AM

Broadly speaking I really don't think the GOP is interested in reforming. They have, at best, become highly amoral, eagerly willing to placate the ignorance and bigotry of their electorate in order to seize power and impose their vision of America (which, when you remove the platitudes and dogwhistles, is just a veiled plutocracy and Social Darwinism that is indifferent to systemic inequality).

Trump got them this far and they know it. Some of them may have a My God, What Have I Done? moment, but it'll likely be too late.

edited 8th Dec '16 10:15:44 AM by Draghinazzo

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#160994: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:14:03 AM

[up][up]You're thinking of the senate, which is indeed daunting at best for the Dems. Every congressional seat is theoretically up for grabs every election.

edited 8th Dec '16 10:14:26 AM by Gilphon

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#160995: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:17:25 AM

[up][up][up] They can easily sweep the House if enough crap goes down. The House was designed to constantly be swept, which is why the Democrats lost the House only 2 years after Obama won.

[up][up][up][up]+[up][up][up][up][up] Like I said, the Republican Party itself is at a cross roads, and it's up to them to decide whether they follow Trump's lead for short term gains, or if they 'stay the course' and reform later for long term benefits. Some people might say "Oh, Reagan's party is dead, this is Trump's party", but if most Republicans are determined to follow Reagan's path, and not Trump's, then it is still Reagan's Party, and Trump just becomes this weirdo in Political Terms (similar to how Theodore Roosevelt is a weirdo when it comes to Republicanism; even the Republican Party of his Day was weary and ultimately against his Policies).

edited 8th Dec '16 10:18:18 AM by DingoWalley1

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#160996: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:26:30 AM

[up]Trump already seems to be willing to give the Republicans exactly what they want.

It is only if he doesn't back the Republicans desired healthcare reforms or similar things that I think we would see the Republicans move against and it would leave Democrats in the precarious position of being on the same side as Trump. A similar situation would likely occur on Free Trade I think.

edited 8th Dec '16 10:27:51 AM by Mio

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#160997: Dec 8th 2016 at 10:27:16 AM

Democrats have to play defense in 2018, but given the sheer notoriety of Trump and how, like it or not, every Republican will be stuck in a Catch-22 of trying to pander to their base at the expense of the general electorate who they need to get elected, and tie themselves closer to him, or reach out to the general public at the expense of their base, who they need for nomination and getting out the vote in general, they'll have much more they need to defend. Honestly, I would expect a repeat of 2014, where the Democrats were running away from Obama like he was the plague, but realized, to their sorrow, that it fatally weakened their ground game.

Also, let's remember that the GOP's congressional fortress, like Rome, wasn't built in a day.

edited 8th Dec '16 10:30:05 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#160998: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:03:20 AM

Sorry for late reply, I'm at work so can't respond immediately.

My takeaway re: the popular vote is any importance is largely symbolic. I see the point, though I'm not sure I completely agree with that since what it ultimately means to my eyes is that Clinton had a lot of support in focused areas but lacked the nationwide support she needed to actually win the thing.

Also, @Julian

Well not all states are equal.
I can't really agree with this sentiment. Slavery hypocrisy aside, one of America's first and highest ideals is "All men are created equal". Saying not all states are equally feels to me like being just one step away from declaring not all people are equal.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:03:43 AM by sgamer82

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#160999: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:08:03 AM

[up] What was meant was that, for the purposes of election, not all states' votes mean the same, and a victory in one state is not necessarily as significant as a victory in another state.

The other point is that the Electoral College is simply a busted system.

Also, Trump goes back on Carrier deal AGAIN by saying he didn't ACTUALLY promise Carrier that he'd save their jobs.

I can only imagine the depth of decent America's embarrassment that this man is president.

edited 8th Dec '16 11:10:15 AM by Draghinazzo

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#161000: Dec 8th 2016 at 11:08:37 AM

More articles on Pizzagate, what it means, how it spread.

How it spread, via Washington Post.

Across from Comet, at the French bistro Terasol, co-owner Sabrina Ousmaal noticed a disturbing Google review of her restaurant that alleged that Terasol, too, was involved in a plot to abuse children.

Then, more online comments appeared, focusing on a photo on Terasol’s website that showed Ousmaal and her daughter posing with Clinton, who had eaten there several years earlier. The Internet sleuths also fixated on a heart logo that appeared on the restaurant’s site as part of a fundraiser for St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital, which Ousmaal, a cancer survivor, has supported for years.

“These maniacs thought that was a symbol of child pornography,” said her husband and business partner, Alan Moin. “It’s crazy.”

The family removed the symbol from their site, but the online comments adapted to the new reality: Terasol must be hiding something. The anonymous calls increased.

“What can we do?” Ousmaal said. “There is no basement. There is no tunnel. There is nothing.”

Alefantis and other merchants were mystified: Where was this all coming from? Can’t anyone make it stop?

Can't anyone make it stop? Well, that might require libel/slander laws to be enforced or, if not enforceable against these clowns, strengthened. Maybe if the Trump administration strengthens such laws (likely to protect Trump, of course), it could have the added side effect of silencing stupid assholes who spread this made-up shit.

The owner of 4chan, Hiroyuki Nishimura, said in an email to The Post that “Pizzagate reminds me that a country indicated [there were] stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and many people and countries were deceived. It is same old story.”

Yup, comparing it to Bush lying about WMDs in Iraq. Heh.

Forbes has their own take on it and compares it to the Marina Joyce incident, where a bunch of people became convinced that 19-year-old You Tube personality Marina Joyce was being held hostage and forced to keep making videos. (Her odd behavior, some suggest, may instead be the result of drug abuse or schizophrenia)

edited 8th Dec '16 11:09:30 AM by BonsaiForest


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