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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160651: Dec 5th 2016 at 6:46:04 PM

We'd also need to get our housing prices under control.

Also, what would we use for currency? It seems unlikely that the USA would allow California to keep using the dollar.

...I cannot believe I am actually putting thought into this. sad

edited 5th Dec '16 6:47:48 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#160652: Dec 5th 2016 at 7:30:17 PM

[up]How about just calling it the Californian Dollar? That's basically what the rednecks up north use after all.tongue

Also, if we are are even somewhat seriously considering the possibility of a secession, what do you think about immigration policies? Because considering how things go down, I'd like to know that I won't have to become an illegal alien to live in an actual Land of the Free. (TM)tongue

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160653: Dec 5th 2016 at 7:46:33 PM

[up] Dual citizenship probably wouldn't be an option.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#160654: Dec 5th 2016 at 7:49:54 PM

A recount is currently underway in Michigan - but apparently in Detroit, there are a very large number of votes (roughly 373,000, according to external sources) that may be deemed "unrecountable."

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#160655: Dec 5th 2016 at 7:50:03 PM

The Heritage Foundation is having an address by Mike Pence at the Trump International Hotel.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#160656: Dec 5th 2016 at 7:52:33 PM

On the climate change denial thing. I've seen plenty of it during my debunking conspiracy theory years.

All the Go P and the interests that benefit from its denial did was to create some reasonablenote  doubt. This involved a few things:

First they convinced a share of their public that the push for green energy and all those papers about anthropological climate change are a sham by global elites and the green energy lobby. The later simply wants to undermine the US competitiveness and the latter are paid shills for the green energy sector.

Second they kinda admit that the climate change is real...buuuuut as a natural cycle that mankind can't intervene in, so they can claim the former is using a natural phenomenon to push their agendas on the public.

Third with the help of the former two, they convinced their supporters that the academics and groups publishing the anthropological climate change live in ivory towers with no connection and empathy towards the blue collar workers that will be harmed by the migration of fossil fuels like oil and coal to other green energy thus robbing them from their jobs and making them feel guilty for using fuel inefficient vehicles. Fostering an anti-intellectual feeling in order to discredit anyone who disagrees with their narrative as being a bunch of uptight know-it-all elitist douches who never had to work in their lives.

This helped by remaining in their information bubbles and convincing themselves that any academics that disagree with their views must be from a brainwashed librul! college circlejerk that hates blue collar workers and their version of the true and traditional America.

In other words. They are stupid and proud of it, they don't want to change their views because they'd have to admit they are wrong and true murikkkans are always right and they have been drinking the kool aid long enough to start believing their own bullshit. Of course there are also the religious dipshits who believe it is all part of the mighty god's plan and they can't tamper with creation no matter how hard they tried or that the second coming of Christ is soonTM so they shouldn't bother with fixing the planet.

Inter arma enim silent leges
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#160657: Dec 5th 2016 at 7:56:11 PM

[up]x4 Well, yeah. If I had to move to the Grand Republic of California, I wouldn't mind tossing my USA citizenship into the dirt, given the circumstances that would have led me to going to California in the first place. It's just that I would want a chance to actually get citizenship there, rather than having to play it like it's South of the Border and cross into Cali illegally because they've closed their doors on account not wanting any crazy American rednecks in.tongue

edited 5th Dec '16 7:56:47 PM by kkhohoho

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160658: Dec 5th 2016 at 7:57:44 PM

Steven Attewell has written a bit about devolution before. Apparently the same sentiment happened when Bush the Second got re-elected in 2004 (with the popular vote this time).

One of the earliest blog posts I ever wrote was a response to (not entirely serious) calls from the left that the blue states should secede and join Canada after the 2004 election when George W. Bush was (narrowly) re-elected. You may or may not remember the then-ubiquitous maps of the “United States of Health Care and Education” vs. “Jesusland,” but at the time they represented a real fear that the blue states were permanently in the minority, out of touch with “real America,” and just as “un-American” as right-wing culture warriors have always claimed. The idea was that, by removing the Blue States from a permanently Republican America, we’d now be able to pass universal health care and all the other liberal reforms supposedly impossible in the nation as a whole.

The result of devolution on both scales is that wealthy regions and localities, already segregated from the poor through the mechanism of soaring real estate prices, enjoy abundant resources to fund excellent social services for themselves (while experiencing less demand for public services for the poor), which in turn intensifies the movement of the affluent to those areas as they seek the best advantages for their children. Poor areas, in turn, may be politically liberated (as with the case of the huge wave of black mayors elected in major cities in the 1970s and 1980s), but are starved of any of the resources needed to realize the political aspirations of their residents. To paraphrase Michael Harrington, you can’t end poverty by nationalizing poverty.

A recent example from California, where billionaire venture capitalist Tim Draper attempted (and thank god failed) to place an initiative on the ballot splitting California into six states, shows the implications quite clearly:

Dividing the state would have instantly polarized the regions between wealthy and poor, with North California, Silicon Valley, and West California enjoying median household incomes far above those of Jefferson and Central California. More importantly for Tim Draper, it would have meant that the wealthy of Silicon Valley would not have to pay taxes to support services for the poor, who would now be the problem of someone else’s government. The redistributive nature of California’s existing state government, where statewide Democratic majorities vote to increase taxes on the wealthy and increase social spending for the poor, would have ended.

Calexit would probably lead to mini-secessions on its own...and probably the end of the social democracy that has functioned at local state legislatures.

And some of these Silicon Valley types might move their business away attracted by Trump's tax-cuts.

Which is why I think tax protest is more effective.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#160659: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:21:44 PM

Less true now than in 2004. The only part of California that would probably want out of California is the north eastern corner of California.

Most of the Republicans in the red part of California are more moderate than their red state counterparts and the Republican Party took a real beating in California after Governor Arnold and his posse helped wreck out economy even worse than before.

It also helps that California is doing really well in comparison to other states.

We'd also need to get our housing prices under control. Also, what would we use for currency? It seems unlikely that the USA would allow California to keep using the dollar.

How about the Californio? Or we can just name our currency the Californian dollar.

Also Facebook is ahead of you. It's spending 20 million dollars on affordable housing in California. It's in the Silicon Valley housing but still.

edited 5th Dec '16 8:22:52 PM by MadSkillz

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#160661: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:25:10 PM

[up][up][up]That's always the problem with secession, you can always make up reasons to keep slicing things smaller and smaller and breaking up more and more. Shit, at one point during the Civil War South Carolina threatened to secede from the Confederacy.

edited 6th Dec '16 7:53:54 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160662: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:29:27 PM

Yeah, a strong central government is the order of the day...I am a Big Government guy through and through.

All the best Presidents have been big government men Washington/Lincoln/FDR.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#160663: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:31:51 PM

Hmmm....so both of those faithless electors want Kasich.

I'd laugh if Kasich gets the presidency for denouncing Trump and not crawling back to him like the rest.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#160664: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:36:12 PM

You know what's kind of funny? In Canada, the provinces arguably have more autonomy than the states do in the US. There's way less friction though, because the Constitution Act of 1982 directly stated the powers the provinces have versus the federal government. Like, the federal government has the final say on marriage. Period. When Ottawa said gay marriage was legal, no one had any real way to push back, because the provinces didn't have a say.

The US really needs something like the Constitution Act of 1982.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#160665: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:39:39 PM

"I'm going to run in 2020," Biden told a group of reporters on Capitol Hill.

"For what?" one of the reporters asked.

"For president," Biden responded, adding later, "What the hell man."

Classic.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#160666: Dec 5th 2016 at 8:44:08 PM

Interesting note: Texas has 38 electoral votes. Electoral votes are held separately in each state but if all of Texas swung it would deny Trump 270 and throw it to Congress. Texas also has no penalty for going faithless (or conscientious as the case may be).

edited 5th Dec '16 8:45:13 PM by Elle

henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#160667: Dec 5th 2016 at 9:16:34 PM

[up][up] I sure hope he doesn't. An old, moderate insider didn't win back the Whitehouse in 2004, and I'm afraid it won't work this time either.

edited 5th Dec '16 9:17:40 PM by henry42

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#160668: Dec 5th 2016 at 9:21:41 PM

[up][up]As I stated earlier, if enough electors go faithless to break 270 to win, the college will go into a separate vote-it only goes to Congress if they deadlock below 270. If several break ranks, the Republican Congress critters will all order their electoral representatives to go faithless and roll over the Democrats and defectors through sheer numbers. The Democrats would have to get every one of their own on board plus the independents, and add around thirty Republicans willing to vote for the same candidate-and then account for the most likely Judas by way of Chamberlain turncoats in their own ranks when the final vote comes up. That is a very tall order, and if it goes sideways it would be a disaster that puts the choice in the hands of the heavily Republican House; and a direct vote by the Representatives, rather than electors with a conscience.

edited 5th Dec '16 9:21:59 PM by ViperMagnum357

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160669: Dec 5th 2016 at 9:31:45 PM

He is obviously joking. I think in any case he should be in the primaries in 2020 in any case. He should have been there this time too because I feel that Hillary could have used the competition and challenge. Getting Biden in would also have kept Sanders from getting traction because he's way more charismatic than Bernie.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#160670: Dec 5th 2016 at 10:34:09 PM

Biden refused to do so because of personal reasons of his son dying, and I don't think we should be looking on his lack of running with any kind of regret because that's disrespectful. And frankly this whole game of "should have done" and "would have won" bullshit is going to get us nothing but feeling bitter at each other. Let's stop rehashing the primaries in that manner, please.

Anyway, I think he's at least semi-serious and is more going to watch what happens over the next four years and regarding the field of candidates. Meaning he's serious when he says he might, but there's a lot of other factors that are going to happen between now and then. And hell, I'd vote for him. Seems like he's got his head on straight at the moment.

I'm not really so sure we should be so concerned about age at this point anyhow. He's not that much older than Trump and is in better health. And age hasn't exactly stopped other presidents from dying in office, so. Not so sure we ought to be that concerned about it.

edited 5th Dec '16 10:35:27 PM by AceofSpades

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#160671: Dec 5th 2016 at 10:38:39 PM

[up][up]I feel that if Biden had ran he might have split the non-leftist vote with Hillary thus giving Bernie a better shot at the candidacy and mirroring what ultimately happened in the Republican primary race. Then again you may be right that Biden's charisma would have carried him well, likely to the candidacy I think.

The US really needs something like the Constitution Act of 1982.

Technically the 10th Amendment was supposed to settle that by saying that anything that the constitution did not explicitly and specifically empower the federal government with was the purview of the states and only the states.

Of course, that did not stop the federal government from using some loss interpretations of some of the vaguer parts of the constitution to exercise more authority. The varies Commerce Clauses being one of the most common sources of this.

In the end though it comes down to how much the courts are willing to allow the federal government to do.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160672: Dec 5th 2016 at 10:39:15 PM

Hell, he's got my vote if he really ends up running.

Disgusted, but not surprised
singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#160673: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:03:59 AM

Only issue I have is that by declaring so early (as in the body is still warm early), Joe sort of poisons the well.

One of the biggest issues I think about Clinton was the fact her mere prescence suppressed other candidates coming to the fore. No one in the Democrat party dared to mount a challenge... I think it is important to change that culture to at least give others a chance to build up a national profile.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#160674: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:53:18 AM

At this point I'd vote for Biden simply for not being Republican, less out of party loyalism and more because the current Republican electorate seems incapable of nominating anyone who isn't bugfuck crazy.

@Ivanka

For whatever reason she's always seemed like the most reasonable and pragmatic (or at least clever enough to maintain a public image as such) of the Trump clan. If anyone wants to effect change she may be the best person to cozy up to. It's going to be a good dose of irony if a woman is the key to saving the day.

edited 6th Dec '16 12:57:38 AM by AlleyOop

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160675: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:06:06 AM

I don't know...it feels very neo-feudal to me.

And why assume that the daughter shares views very different from Daddy. She's a bit of an airhead and if this guy is to be believed, a racist too.

This one hilarious quote is great:

When Ivanka was a kid, she got frustrated because she couldn’t set up a lemonade stand in Trump Tower. “We had no such advantages,” she writes, meaning, in this case, an ordinary home on an ordinary street. She and her brothers finally tried to sell lemonade at their summer place in Connecticut, but their neighborhood was so ritzy that there was no foot traffic. “As good fortune would have it, we had a bodyguard that summer,” she writes. They persuaded their bodyguard to buy lemonade, and then their driver, and then the maids, who “dug deep for their spare change.” The lesson, she says, is that the kids “made the best of a bad situation.” In another early business story, she and her brothers made fake Native American arrowheads, buried them in the woods, dug them up while playing with their friends, and sold the arrowheads to their friends for five dollars each.

In other words she's a chip of the old block. She built a lemonade stand and made her servants give spare change to pay for it. She's also wants to make money out of Native American culture too, which is part of the general imperialist ethos there.


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