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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#160451: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:15:02 PM

Why so shocked? That Trump is a moron is something we all know. If he appoints a ultra-liberal judge to SCOTUS, then we can stop the presses.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#160452: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:16:16 PM

[up][up] That article didn't make it clear, but is there any basis for thinking Trump won't put forward a budget (presumably drafted for him by Paul Ryan), or this just speculation?

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#160453: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:22:00 PM

[up]

The article referenced sources as, "GOP Congressional Leaders".

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160454: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:22:29 PM

I don't think economics and social justice are a zero-sum game, but the rhetoric that this was about economy and not race...and that we need to appeal to the Rust Belt and move from "identity politics" as some have been noting is an argument, however well-intentioned, that opens the door to setting back social issues even further. Historical precedent points in that direction. And you may call that fatalistic...but when after all these centuries an openly racist candidate wins the White House by means of an archaic tool (Electoral College) built to sustain slavery...it's not fatalistic...it's realistic.

edited 4th Dec '16 3:30:26 PM by JulianLapostat

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#160455: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:28:23 PM

Both are macro issues

I agree with this. Marginal propensity and consume and, in turn, purchasing power can and are influenced by and influence institutional limitations on what it means to be a citizen in this country.

Speaking from experience, it's kinda hard to run a business and make money when your environment contains people who are questioning your humanity.

That said, Alley Oop's previous post is cromulent.

edited 4th Dec '16 3:30:30 PM by Aprilla

Madrugada MOD Since: Jan, 2001
#160456: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:33:44 PM

Dial it back Julian. You've made your point several times.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160457: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:34:56 PM

Okay. I think I'll stay off this forum for a while...anyway. Not that I disagree but I need to not get carried away.

edited 4th Dec '16 3:35:27 PM by JulianLapostat

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#160458: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:42:01 PM

Here's the thing while Trump's win was narrow enough that just a few small changes could lead to him being defeated in 2020 that's not enough for me. Look a win is a win and I'll take it if we can get it, but I want more.

I want a full scale rejection of Trump, not a narrow win in 2020 where people say that he was mediocre, I want a crushing Demcoratic victory that becomes a historical statement that the US dance with Facism is over, that the nation has woken up and fully rejected the hatred, stupidity and sheer madness that Trump represents.

The Dems could get a narrow win in 2020 if they just ran Clinton's campaign again with someone less unpopular then Clinton.

But I don't want just that, I want a connection with the rural middle-class who are afraid of the future, I want high turnout across the board after the removal of voter suppression laws, I want a well structured campaign that targets exactly the right people in the right way, I want no media screw ups and no allowance for the press to create fake controversy from nothing, I want a candidate that inspires people while having a strong progressive platform, I want the rural white Republican base to wake up and realise they've been conned, I want a collapse in hardcore Republican turnout as they realise they've achieved nothing and are about to become redundant.

I don't just want my cake, I don't even just want to have it and eat, I want to have it, eat it and shove it in the other guys face.

I want the Dem win in 2020 to make LB Js win over Goldwater look like amateur hour.

edited 4th Dec '16 3:42:58 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#160459: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:44:05 PM

[up][awesome]

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#160460: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:45:30 PM

On a different topic, a rare bit of good news (assuming it's all true): I'm seeing people say that the Dakota Access Pipeline has been stopped! I can't find any official articles on the subject yet, since it's a brand-new development, but if what I'm seeing is to be believed then Obama has blocked the project.

More here: Feds deny permit for Dakota Access pipeline

Essentially, they've stopped construction for the moment, and the Army Corps of Engineers is investigating alternate routes. However, the developer (Energy Transport Partners) are essentially saying they'll just wait the month and a half for Trump to take office.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160461: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:48:09 PM

[up][up][up]

Let me break my self-imposed silence to say:

[tup][tup][tup][awesome]smile

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#160462: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:50:37 PM

If you say Economics is a Macro issue and Minority Rights are Micro...that's more or less the crux of this debate. Both are macro issues. Indeed they are so closely related we should be thinking of socio-economic issues, And why should minority issues take a brief period of absence especially when it is going to be far more relevant in the next four years.

Thankfully I'm not, I'm saying you can have both economics and social justice issues at the macro level, and that Clinton treated social justice as a macro issue like she should, but somehow economics slipped through the cracks and turned into a micro issue along the way. That last point is the one I want to emphasize.

That first sentence was mostly because I was repeating Caspase's terminology and because it's easier for me to view how social justice can be applied at the micro level as an urban person who fills many of those demographics, whereas for economics as a micro issue I mostly think of the Rust Belt and other small places with white majority populations. Micro issues basically being the 50 State Strategy at heart.

@Silasw

Well said. If we want that to happen, we're going to need to actively get ourselves out there, convert people, etc. etc. It's unfortunate that we have to work for something that seems so self-evident to us, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

edited 4th Dec '16 3:56:12 PM by AlleyOop

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#160463: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:51:10 PM

We can only hope, Silas. Well, hope and fight... but there's only so much we can do in four years.

It's been fun.
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#160464: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:56:53 PM

Look at it the other way: you have four years to make it.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#160465: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:57:39 PM

I see a lot of those as long term projects. I don't claim to have an iron grip on what makes rural America tick, but it strikes me that you'd have to somehow upend decades of institutionalized fundamentalism. Calling it a "herculean task" might be an understatement since they'll claw and bite you as you're trying to help.

EDIT: Edited an unfortunate euphemism out.

edited 4th Dec '16 4:27:02 PM by Draghinazzo

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#160466: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:58:21 PM

The goddamned Nukes were built in four years. Four years a fuckload of time, when people come together to get shit done.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#160467: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:58:52 PM

As much as I want an LBJ landslide in 2020, it can't happen.

Parties are weak, while partisanship is strong.

New Survey coming this weekend!
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#160468: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:04:03 PM

Silas: [awesome]

Do not obey in advance.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#160469: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:05:07 PM

Nukes were built in four years, but that's wrestling numbers and science, not whole swaths of people who think a fat man who lives in a golden tower on 5th Avenue is a man of the people.

It's been fun.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#160470: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:08:14 PM

Also, nukes were developed on the backs of many decades of theoretical physics. Standing on the shoulders of giants doesn't even cover half of it.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160471: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:18:42 PM

Look in 2004, Obama was a fresh-faced young senator nobody knew, four years later he was in the white house, winning the Primary fair and square over the DNC Establishment favorite Hillary and against all expectations.

In any case it's not four years. It's 2018 Midterms we need to look at. That is way harder, and more crucial than the Presidency at this point. Win the 2018 Midterms and then the 2020 Redistricting Census can avoid gerrymandering for a decade. Win that and you might force President Trump or President Pence, depending on who's in charge by then, to pick a SCOTUS judge amenable to both Democrats and Republicans. You can also work faster to undo the damage of the next two years.

So two years...well two years was all it took for France to get rid of a monarchy, become a Republic, and go from nothing to the most powerful nation in the world...so a lot can happen. Two years ago in 2014, Obama was unpopular and Hillary was popular. Now it's reversed. Things can happen.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#160472: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:19:27 PM

If 2016 has taught me anything it's that the phrase "it can't happen" is not as valid as it used to be.

The thing is that for that kind of we we have to push across the board, that doesn't just mean a 50 state strategy, it means working out every single area where things went wrong and correcting every problem without stopping the correction of other problems.

As for how to win over rural whites, what do they often remind you of with their refusal to see the facts of how they are being hurt and their blind obedience to thouse who harm them?

Honestly for me I see a lot of parallels with domestic abuse victims and cult members, we have ways of reaching out to such people and we need to start using them. That means not just direct engagement and talking about their issues but highlighting exactly how many lies they've been fed, it means billboards in rural America showing Trump beating rural families, taking away their Medicaid and then telling them to blame the Muslims.

Alongside hope, change and a shinning future for all Americans that needs to be a core message for 2018 and 2020, "The Reoublicans are con artists trying to trick you, don't let them."

Medicare might end up privatised under Trump, if that happens I want it on a billboard, "Donald Trump and Paul Ryan took your Medicare, its time to take their jobs".

edited 4th Dec '16 4:20:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#160473: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:22:10 PM

(This is me not-being-a-mod, ok?)

You want to figure out how to bring the majority of folks who voted for Trump away from him? Are you serious about that? Because if you are, you're going to have to stop thinking and talking about them as a monolithic group of too-dumb-for-their-own-good yokels who have to be forced to "to take the pill." you're going to force down their throats because you know better what they need. Of course they're going to bite and fight back if you try to do that. You would too if someone forced something on you.

So. How do you do it? First, you change the way you think of them. They're people and they have to be approached as people, not sick animals that need to be pilled. You listen to what they, as individuals say they thought they were going to get out a Trump presidency that they weren't going to get from Hillary (or Bernie, or Jill or wossisname the Libertarian guy. Or Mc Millan). Really listen to them. To the individuals and not just the loudest and shrillest of them.

And then you go get a copy of Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends and Influence People and you study that damn thing like your goal depends on it. Because it does. You need to influence people on the individual (and small group) level. You can't succeed at that if you keep treating them all as hicks and yokels and racists and bigots.

edited 4th Dec '16 4:24:11 PM by Madrugada

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#160474: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:22:29 PM

[up][up][up][up]Plus, in this case, we're working against a hundred thousand years of Human behavior, which itself stands upon the shoulders of millions of years of evolution: Tribalism, xenophobia, "us vs. them" mentality, "fight or flight," "kill or be killed," etc.

Multiculturalism and globalization are newfangled ideas, and human beings are not as rational and erudite as some of us like to pretend.

edited 4th Dec '16 4:27:14 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#160475: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:25:24 PM

I don't necessarily disagree with that and I apologize if my phrasing betrayed me, but my point was that it's very challenging to dismantle a system of fundamentalism. As in, a lot can happen in 2 years, but it's going to be extremely difficult to get them to listen regardless of your approach since you're talking about a system that's very well-entrenched. And so, I think it should be seen as a long-term project and you shouldn't expect to have results by 2018 or 2020.

edited 4th Dec '16 4:27:56 PM by Draghinazzo


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