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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#160201: Dec 3rd 2016 at 9:58:16 AM

@pweigle: That's what leads to things like people saying "I'm not racist, I don't see color!" We can't just pretend that these things don't exist and lie about not having prejudices. We have to actually dig down and fix things on a systematic level. We have to stop teaching our kids bigoted lies, even if we don't realize we're doing it. You can't just set it aside, because that leads to white people doing nothing to help as they step on minorities.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160202: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:01:59 AM

[up] The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.

edited 3rd Dec '16 10:03:51 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160203: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:03:30 AM

I think this debate could get heated and self-demonstrating so I suggest we move past it. I appreciate that you voted for HRC and I really do believe that in this climate its important that people don't fight each other on these issues and mount, shall we say, a Popular Front against Trump.

I do agree that reparations would be more amenable if we can end the Bush and incoming Trump-era tax-cuts and increase taxation on the rich and wealthy. Especially on Mr. Trump himself...his father Fred Trump and he himself participated in housing discrimination. Fred Trump was such a robber baron that Woody Guthrie himself wrote a folk song against him (but he didn't record it before he died).

Ending those tax-cuts is hard as even Obama found it hard to do and all he was able to manage is increase Wall Street regulations. So on this issue, I do agree that general economic solutions should come before reparations.

The thing is even if HRC became president, reparations was going to be hard. Clinton was against it, as was Bernie Sanders. Much like Election Reform, and ending the Electoral College this is a decade long commitment.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160204: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:10:10 AM

It says a lot about this past year that the General Politics thread is veering off into stuff better suited for the Race relations thread with disturbing regularity.

edited 3rd Dec '16 10:12:43 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Madrugada MOD Since: Jan, 2001
#160205: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:12:14 AM

Guys, I know that it's really tempting to go off on tangents about historical stuff, but it's not on-topic.

Also, please dial back the anger and hostility that keeps poping up here. You can feel strongly about things, but that doesn't excuse dismissing or attacking people who feel differently, or who aren't coming from the same palce you are.

Okay?

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160206: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:13:42 AM

My last post realized this and called to dial it down. Thank you for your warning.

It says a lot about this past year that the General Politics thread is veering off into stuff better suited for the Race relations thread with disturbing regularity.

Well we have a President who says racist things, endorsed by the KKK, his administration has a White Supremacist, his Cabinet Picks are anti-Civil Rights Rogues Gallery. So this is not general race issues anymore but actual government policies now. And let's not forget that this is the first election where restrictive voter-ID laws were in effect with the 2013 Voting Rights Act being gutted off key requirements.

edited 3rd Dec '16 10:16:44 AM by JulianLapostat

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#160207: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:17:23 AM

[up] The really disturbing thing is that millions voted for him despite, or even because, of the bigotry.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#160208: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:17:35 AM

@Julian Lapostat: Reparations sound even more politically untenable then Electoral Reform or even massive welfare programs like UBI. I'm not even certain that many African-Americans would be all that on-board with the idea.

Also. . .

Hollywood was routinely blackmailed for that...like Hearst did it when he wanted to suppress Citizen Kane (and you know that is never discussed as a violation of the First Amendment for some reason, a lot of people blame Welles as if he shouldn't have libeled a famous man) and in HUAC and the blacklist that showed up.

Well Hearst wasn't in government at the time (as far as I know), and in either case he was his private influence to blackball Welles not any government assets.

The first amendment freedom of speech protection is usually recognized as a protection against government censorship and persecution. Private citizens can and do engage in all sorts of suppression of speech. After all, theoretically if freedom pf speech also applied to private parties TV Tropes could theoretically be sued and punished for banning people for openly espousing bigotry.

edited 3rd Dec '16 10:18:21 AM by Mio

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160209: Dec 3rd 2016 at 10:24:16 AM

The first amendment freedom of speech protection is usually recognized as a protection against government censorship and persecution. Private citizens can and do engage in all sorts of suppression of speech. After all, theoretically if freedom pf speech also applied to private parties TV Tropes could theoretically be sued and punished for banning people for openly espousing bigotry.

This explains a lot, thank you. That's a fine royal loophole for repressive autocratic tendencies to sail through: Hearst, Hughes, Murdoch, Trump. It explains Fox News. The joke is that Trump as President has less freedom to control his image and libel his opponents than he did as a "Businessman". Though he's surely going to do his best to make new precedents in that direction.

As for Reparations and other things being unattainable...well abolition looked unattainable in 1850, 15 years later it entered the Constitution. You can never quite say anything is entirely impossible. A lot of social goals and movements look impossible starting out.

Donald Trump if nothing else is proof of that. In 2011, we all thought Obama mocking Trump at the White House Dinner and the Birther movement would end Trump. Nobody expected him to get past the Primaries and here he is in the White House.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#160210: Dec 3rd 2016 at 11:15:43 AM

As for Reparations and other things being unattainable...well abolition looked unattainable in 1850, 15 years later it entered the Constitution. You can never quite say anything is entirely impossible. A lot of social goals and movements look impossible starting out.

True as that may be reparations are even lower on the scale of attainability then many other things that seem unattainable at this time. There are not exactly an unlimited amount of resources to devote to this fights and we do have to pick and choose them.

I will say that electoral reform does seem like something that is more within reach, especially if campaigners can somehow attach it to citizens united/ campaign finance reform since last I checked that still had a lot of broad support (even if it has faded into the background as of late).

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160211: Dec 3rd 2016 at 11:26:10 AM

Election Reform is definitely on the Priority list (although I don't see how other issues can't happen simultaneously and build consensus alongside it).

Citizens United is relevant because David Bossie was the guy who charged at the Court and he's on Trump's Team. So when I say its a Rogues Gallery I am being serious...you see virtually villains opposing the same traditions of democracy allying on one side of the divide.

Election Reform is basically getting rid of dark money, restoring the voting rights act, ending the electoral college and insisting on popular vote, and either moving Election Day to a weekend or making Tuesday Election Day into a national holiday.

Most likely there will be a compromise...like I think Election Day becoming a National Holiday will be hard to do. And overturning Citizens United will be hard to get the votes needed. So if can focus on popular vote and restoring the voting rights act...then I think it can work.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#160212: Dec 3rd 2016 at 11:36:19 AM

Depends on who's using it. Personally, I never use SJW when I could be saying something along the lines of "jugemental asshole bully". But when I hear SJW, that's who I think about. The sort of person that would tell you to kill yourself over the slightest bit of cultural insensitivity. The sort of person that wants you to be horribly ashamed of yourself for being born white, cis, or male. The sort of person that have decided that anyone not from their cultural tribe is subhuman and does not deserve even an attempt at genuine communication.

edited 3rd Dec '16 11:38:27 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160213: Dec 3rd 2016 at 11:51:51 AM

The thing is that kind of passionate heated discourse has always been part of political advocacy and rights but on the Internet it somehow turns nasty. I have my own issues with some of what is called "identity politics" especially as it pertains to art and artistic representation.

But you know if you don't listen to moderate voices you are eventually going to push them to speak louder and angrier and over time you kind of fall into a pre-existing stereotype defined by your enemies. I think that's what happened in America with mainstream politics becoming bland and sterile for many years, and the American society and media following suit. And the tragic joke is that the one voice that finale gets them to listen and become mainstream is white supremacy because its the only one whose online representation is tied to tangible wealth and power.

That's what we forget. All these internet voices calling for identity issues and representations, that's the only real forum they had to say things in that categorical fierce manner. They didn't have wealth and power, but on the internet their voices and arguments had some presence and influence. And I think everyone lost sight of that when making issues about "identity politics".

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#160214: Dec 3rd 2016 at 12:01:14 PM

Did we post this here already?

https://trumpgrets.tumblr.com/

I think this thread is going to be the salve i need going forward, watching the folks who voted for him or otherwise backed him as he destroys their worlds or badly disappoints them.

I have to laugh at the "Senior Vet" with the Eagle avatar begging Trump and Paul Ryan to not take away his medicare and social security. Boo fucking hoo.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160215: Dec 3rd 2016 at 12:05:24 PM

Schadenfreude has limited satisfaction, comrade.

Trump/Ryan taking away Medicare, means taking away the benefits of the majority that didn't vote for him.

Pier Paolo Pasolini : Today you sell your ring, tomorrow your watch, next week your chain and in 77 days you won't have eyes to cry with.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#160216: Dec 3rd 2016 at 12:38:32 PM

A therapist I know has reflected on the many cases he has dealt with, and noticed that very poorly made, self-destructive decisions were frequently explained by the clients themselves along a similar theme:

"It seemed like a good idea at the time."

edited 3rd Dec '16 12:42:17 PM by Eschaton

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160217: Dec 3rd 2016 at 1:09:26 PM

I think one of the reasons why the Hillary campaigned failed is that the Left did not defend her enough. Everyone said she and Trump were uniquely unpopular candidates...and the whole narrative was that she was the lesser of two evils...which well that invites the Chtulhu for President meme (Why vote for the Lesser Evil?).

Nobody bothered to investigate the Mccarthyist stuff around her and defend her record or the whole misogynist narrative about "her voice" or anything. Or the fact that she was quite popular as Secretary of State two years ago as Obama noted in an interview...at that time his approval ratings were in doubt, Indeed during the 2014 Midterm Elections, many Democrats who campaigned said some not-nice things about Obama and basically felt that being associated with him could hurt their bids...they lost anyway. And now Obama has the highest approval ratings of any lame-duck president and the Democrats do not have eyes to cry with. And the unpopular Hillary won the popular vote by an incredibly large margin that it has made America the laughing stock of the democratic world. A candidate who outpolls her opponent by 2.5 million votes ending up in second place...that is the height of absurdity.

You have Oliver Stone, a brilliant film-maker on occasions but a bad propaganist like Michael Moore (I wonder why white leftist artists suck in general), saying stuff like Obama is a snake and Hillary is as bad as Trump, and then glorifying traitors like Snowden. And to me, the lack of a unified rally around the candidate hurt her. The Sanders campaign also gave false messages, that DNC hack, did not uncover any actual rigging against Bernie, just a few snarky comments that more or less confirmed what everyone knew about the DNC, that they didn't like Bernie (and why should they like an Independent who insults them after he gets the debates increased from 6 to 9)...obscuring that she won the primaries, aka the popular choice of the democrat electorate.

Yeah Hillary supported the Iraq War, but so did Joe Biden. And unlike Joe Biden who lied about it in the 2012 VP Debate with Paul Ryan (that line "He and his friends put 2 wars on a credit card" which, no offense I like you and all, but you agreed to it as well Uncle Joe), Hillary apologized for it, and that still wasn't enough. I am sorry why extort apologies from her and not Bush and his thugs, and the 2008 Election was the referendum on Iraq...since then we have Obama the Drone Warrior and Extrajudicial Avenger of Bin Laden.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#160218: Dec 3rd 2016 at 1:12:44 PM

For the moment schadenfreude is all i have. I'll try to get involved going forward, but for now i need some reassurance.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#160219: Dec 3rd 2016 at 1:40:05 PM

"It Seemed Like a Good Idea at the Time."

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160220: Dec 3rd 2016 at 2:00:41 PM

Except it wasn't ever a good idea to vote for someone as flagrantly corrupt and rotten as Trump.

He was bad news from Day 1. Before that. I mean during the Birther movement where the Republicans legitimized him by seeking his endorsement and support for no goddamn reason.

Voting for Tony Blair genuinely did seem like a good idea at the time as did voting for Francois Hollande "son semblable, son frere". Blair promised to get Labour back in charge after decades of Conservative dominance, and Hollande was there to wipe away the Sarkozy years. So Blair did moderate himself on key Labour platform but no one voting him had any real expectations that it would lead to UK involving itself in the War on terror.

Voting for Clinton likewise seemed like a good idea even if it amounted to competent Reaganism. And Clinton was more competent than Blair and Hollande.

RabidTanker God-Mayor of Sim-Kind Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
God-Mayor of Sim-Kind
#160221: Dec 3rd 2016 at 2:09:44 PM

[up]: So what choice did we have, then? I agree that Trump looks unreliable and I can't say much about Clinton and the others.

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#160222: Dec 3rd 2016 at 2:17:00 PM

[up]The only option was to vote Clinton. She was the most qualified and had the most solid agenda/platform of any of the candidates.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#160223: Dec 3rd 2016 at 2:21:45 PM

Just to be clear, Lapostat is talking about Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton?

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#160224: Dec 3rd 2016 at 2:25:18 PM

[up]Given the context and the other names they mentioned, probably Bill.

JulianLapostat Since: Feb, 2014
#160225: Dec 3rd 2016 at 2:31:33 PM

Oh in my post, I meant Bill Clinton...when I refer to Hillary I use her first name to distinguish her from Slick Willy. Hillary was on Bill's left on many issues albeit she did support some of his crazy schemes.

Bill Clinton's Presidency amounted to a Crapsaccharine World much like Reagan advertised, and Clinton also used, briefly, the slogan of making America great again which Reagan originated and which in 2016 he denounced as dog-whistle racism now that Trump used it.

He moved the Democrats to Reaganite positions and even if he got the White Working Class vote (because he came from that background) he threw them under the bus with NAFTA and other deals. He was a competent administrator in many ways, but his administration was a lot of Franchise Original Sin. Like mass incarceration happened on his watch, with his backing, with Hillary saying that stupid "superpredator" thing.

The 2016 Presidency is very much a referendum on Bill Clinton's legacy, not Obama's. And it must be bitter/curious for Bill to see his entire career discredited thoroughly while he's still alive. It's crazy that he survived all those scandals from Newt Gingrich and everything only to see the same bad guys resurface in 2016, with all old scandals, and old tactics and even with some old players, like James Comey (who was part of an old investigation I think on Whitewater) returning with a vengeance. Then the whole sex scandals of Bill's was used by Trump as a defense after that Access Hollywood tape came out...and yeah 'the chickens coming home to roost',

edited 3rd Dec '16 2:36:35 PM by JulianLapostat


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