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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155301: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:13:12 AM

[up][up] In principle I agree that the US is a vast country and some laws that are applicable to some states might not be so good for others.

My point is that it is too often used as a dogwhistle to shield bigotry, and that I'm very tired of hearing people defend the concept without any kind of self-awareness.

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#155302: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:13:27 AM

First Mike Rogers, now Ben Carson won't be in Trump's cabinet either. In this instance, it was voluntary, not involuntary.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#155303: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:15:12 AM

The federal government finds itself doing so much because many states have failed in their duty to provide for their citizenry. If the states will not fulfill their duty then someone else must pick up the slack.
Actually the system would work better if states that don't fulfill their duty change their leadership and try different policies, rather than relying on the Feds to bail them out and then keeping the same failed leadership and failed policies. Sometimes you have to be allowed to fail in order to learn to do better. Voters who know the Federal Government won't bail them out of every crisis might finally realize they should change who's in charge of their state instead.

The attitude of "the Feds will always be there to back us up" is one of the things that caused the financial crisis in 2008. If the banks hadn't expected the government to bail them out they wouldn't have made loans to people who couldn't actually pay them back in the first place.

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#155304: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:17:10 AM

@Bense: First off, as an American, I wouldn't wish the abomination that is the Electoral College on any nation on this planet. And for the record, I've been opposed to it since long before this cycle.

Second, it has jack shit to do with the interests of small/rural states. In fact, it has nothing to do with the interests of anyone outside of the few swing states. I mean, how often do presidential candidates visit Idaho, Nebraska, or Hawaii? The answer is almost never because everyone knows what way these states are going to vote, no matter how much or little pandering either side does. And even then, what of the individuals in those states who disagree with their states' majority?

But even more important than that is the fundamental principle of equal representation. An individual in New Hampshire has far more voice than an individual in California, both because he/she is more likely to tip some electoral votes one way or the other, and because New Hampshire has more electoral votes per capital than California.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#155305: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:18:54 AM

[up][up][up]Good. Now if only he gets someone who realizes climate change is real for environment, and fires Bannon, and flip-flops into policy positions that make sense, and stays there...

edited 15th Nov '16 10:20:06 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#155306: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:19:52 AM

My point is that it is too often used as a dogwhistle to shield bigotry, and that I'm very tired of hearing people defend the concept without any kind of self-awareness.
And the nation proved last week that calling half the nation unconscious bigots doesn't do much for winning elections. Frankly, the progressives have called "racism" or "bigotry" too often for it to be effective anymore. This is what happens when you cry wolf too often - when a real wolf shows up nobody believes you anymore.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#155307: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:20:20 AM

The attitude of "the Feds will always be there to back us up" is one of the things that caused the financial crisis in 2008. If the banks hadn't expected the government to bail them out they wouldn't have made loans to people who couldn't actually pay them back in the first place.
Sure they would've. Everyone involved in that mess made millions, and there's enough paper and lawyers between them and anyone that could hold them responsible. "The banks" not going bankrupt was little more than a nice bonus to the individuals making money of off it. For the economy, or "everyone else", however, it was imperative that the banks kept standing because Too Big To Fail is definitely a thing.

Now, someone might have wanted to do something about that before we got to that point, but that's on both the fed and the state.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:20:54 AM by Kayeka

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#155308: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:20:36 AM

We weren't crying wolf — we're simply surrounded by wolves.

Says the man whose avatar is a wolf.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:21:29 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#155309: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:21:45 AM

We weren't crying wolf — we're simply surrounded by wolves.

Damn, that's a good quote. Someone should sig that.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#155310: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:22:09 AM

[up][up][up][up]No. What your nation proved is that the hatch act exists for a reason, and that the director of the FBI should go die in a fire, or at least be fired.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:22:40 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#155311: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:24:25 AM

I think what drugs to legalize as long as they clearly aren't harming people is fair as a state's right.

Anything that can lead to blatant bigotry(slavery can be included here since it's specifically treating Black people as lesser beings) should not be a State thing. It should be a Country-chosen law.

Something to clarify; Churches marrying someone doesn't really fall under a state law specifically. They don't marry anyone in a legal sense. They just gave people a ceremony that caters to their overall beliefs. It does not give them a proper marriage license. Only the court can do that. The court not being able to turn anyone anyway due to their race/gender/sex is what needs to be a hard law that only the country can decide.

Shadow?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155312: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:27:36 AM

And the nation proved last week that calling half the nation unconscious bigots doesn't do much for winning elections. Frankly, the progressives have called "racism" or "bigotry" too often for it to be effective anymore. This is what happens when you cry wolf too often - when a real wolf shows up nobody believes you anymore.

Have you ever considered the fact that progressives often call those things because the country is filled with them? I think the surge of hate crimes and harassment against minorities since Trump proves rather well.

I agree that shame is not a good motivator in terms of getting people to agree with or vote for you, that "callout culture" is a problem, and more actual dialogue without resorting to insults is more conducive to change. However that is different from letting the actual frequent bigotry in the US get a free pass.

Having an actual dialogue means meeting people halfway. I'm not gonna accuse someone of necessarily being racist or bigoted without good reason, but it also means people need to realize about what a lot of the political arguments in the US are actually about most of the time.

Basically, conservatives need to admit that they might not be personally particularly bigoted, but that a lot of people in the US ARE bigoted and that they might be acting complicitly with them. Denying the xenophobia and bigotry in this country is intellectual dishonesty.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:37:55 AM by Draghinazzo

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#155313: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:28:48 AM

I agree that Comey should be fired, because he went along with only pretending to investigate Secretary Clinton when he should have resigned as soon as he saw what kind of "investigation" the Justice Department and the President were going to allow.

Material witnesses acting as counsel, pointless immunity deals, interviewing the suspect only at the end of the investigation - when you always interview first, then verify what they told you, no support from Justice at all, and then capped by the FBI making the determination of whether charges should be pursued, when that is Justice's jurisdiction. A travesty from start to finish.

Fortunately Comey has upset both sides enough that he's probably finished. Trying to please everybody means you end up pleasing nobody.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:30:55 AM by Bense

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#155314: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:29:34 AM

And yet it has consistently failed to keep out candidates like Jackson and Trump, who were in their own time considered very dangerous.

This isn't well known, but the electoral college system DID actually succeed in keeping out Jackson... Guess who won the popular vote in the election that John Quincy Adams ultimately won? Yes, Andrew Jackson. He even won the electoral college vote, but because of the fact that the election of 1824 had four different candidates, all of which were Democratic-Republicans, the election went to the House of Representatives who chose Adams over Jackson. Hell, the whole fact that Jackson was screwed out of the presidency by an alliance between Adams and Henry Clay, Speaker of the House, is what motivated Jackson to break off from the Democratic-Republicans and form the Democrats proper. In the election of 1828, it was only incumbent Adams versus populist Jackson and that is when Jackson was elected president.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:32:03 AM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#155315: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:31:01 AM

What most anti gay marriage people fail to understand: the government can't force the churches to do anything with regard to marriage. That is part of the establishment clause of the constitution. Marriage licenses are a civil thing that can be regulated.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#155316: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:34:12 AM

[up][up][up]...Okay so you're one of the people who actually thinks there was something to the FBI investigation. Good to know.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#155317: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:37:21 AM

@kerpen Credible source tells me KRIS KOBACH likely Attorney General.

You know what? I'll take christie please.

PLEASE. Uggggh

New Survey coming this weekend!
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#155318: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:38:17 AM

Have you ever considered the fact that progressives often call those things because the country is filled with them?
Yes. And my determination has been that it's not nearly as prevalent as they say it is. Sure there's some yahoos out there, but it's certainly not conservatives rioting in the streets over this presidential election. We didn't do it in 2012 when Obama won either.

The idea that Trump was elected because of racism is bunk. Just about the same country elected Obama last time. Were they all closet racists all along?

And saying Clinton wasn't elected because of her gender ignores all the real reasons she wasn't elected.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#155319: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:38:58 AM

Looking at John Quincy Adams' page, the similarities between now and then are astounding.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155320: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:42:29 AM

[up][up][up] I'm not familiar with the name, but I'm guessing it's even worse than Giuliani based on your reaction.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:43:05 AM by CaptainCapsase

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#155321: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:44:13 AM

We didn't have widespread riots over Obama, we just had conspiracy theories about him being a secret Muslim Kenyan plant for ages, coupled with the worst congressional obstructionism that I have personally ever seen. But I'm sure the fact that he happened to be black was just a coincidence.

Bense, can I ask you what kind of things you DO think should be left to the states, specifically? Talking about the abstract is a lot of bickering over nothing. I get the impression that you want local economies to blow up when people elect the wrong politicians as 'punishment,' so that they vote in someone smarter next time. But poverty doesn't foster retrospection and contemplative thinking, it just creates social unrest, as far as we've ever seen.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#155322: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:44:56 AM

The President should absolutely be voted in by the majority. The House of Representatives is voted for by population, (Mostly, the number hasn't been adjusted for a while) and the Senate has two representatives per state. In the Senate, New York has exactly the same say as Nebraska.

When someone is worried about rural populations being overruled by the cities, I wonder what they think about the Territories. Like Puerto Rico, Guam, the US Virgin Islands and American Samoa. They are American citizens, but they have no say or representation. What about them?

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#155323: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:45:55 AM

I don't think anyone here is saying Clinton wasn't elected because of her gender though they can point to instances of double standards where people criticizing her wouldn't have made the same argument about a male candidate.

Also, as much as people want to defend themselves against accusations of racisim and sexism, Trump ran as an openly racist and sexist person and they still voted for him. Eight years ago, saying things like he said would be career ending for a politician. It is pretty safe to say there has been an increase in racist and sexist rhetoric and in the tolerance of it.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155324: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:47:39 AM

Yes. And my determination has been that it's not nearly as prevalent as they say it is.

To be blunt, that isn't for you to decide. Consider the following: the US has a rather large population. Even if only a small percentage of it (let's say 3%) are virulently racist, that's still a lot of people.

Sure there's some yahoos out there, but it's certainly not conservatives rioting in the streets over this presidential election. We didn't do it in 2012 when Obama won either.

Do you even understand why people are rioting?

This isn't throwing a hissy fit because your favorite candidate lost. This is a protest to show that the country does not accept Trump's buffoonery and bigotry. People are protesting because their rights and maybe their lives are in real danger. Trump has put a bunch of cartoonishly horrible people into his cabinet, including white nationalists and virulent homophobes. It is important for people to show the nation that yes, he will be president, but we don't approve of his behavior or the people surrounding him.

If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to tell you other than I'm glad you don't have to be afraid for your life in this election. Many of our tropers here ARE ethnic minorities or LGBT and they're afraid for their lives and don't feel welcome in this country anymore.

The idea that Trump was elected because of racism is bunk. Just about the same country elected Obama last time. Were they all closet racists all along?

Trump was not elected entirely based on racism, however racism and xenophobia were enormous parts of his campaign and they did motivate a large part of people to vote for him even if it wasn't. People are complex, and they don't always vote for just one reason. Even if it wasn't the main motivation for a lot of people, it very clearly was a factor.

And here's something else: you don't have to be personally bigoted in order to be complicit with bigotry. You can help to perpetuate an act of racism without being super racist. And by voting for Trump, that's what a lot of people did. They either were ignorant or willingly threw non-white, non-straight people to the wolves. This has been explained to you before.

And saying Clinton wasn't elected because of her gender ignores all the real reasons she wasn't elected.

You're presenting an enormous strawman here. There are various factors behind why Hillary wasn't elected, however to deny misogyny played a part in that is intellectual dishonesty and blindness to the cultural problems in the US.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:53:56 AM by Draghinazzo

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#155325: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:47:50 AM

...Okay so you're one of the people who actually thinks there was something to the FBI investigation. Good to know.

Come now. Clearly she did break State department policy by having a private e-mail server . We have released e-mails that show she was notified by her own people that she wasn't following the rules.

And clearly she violated the law by sending classified material over said insecure server. We have entire chains of e-mails that the State Department refused to release to the public because they contain classified information, and scores of e-mails that were released that have had classified material edited out of them before public release.

You can argue whether it should matter or not, or whether other people did the same thing, but the facts are the facts.

Director Comey said himself, in effect, that anyone else who did the same thing would have been in serious trouble.


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