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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155251: Nov 15th 2016 at 8:59:23 AM

The Electoral College also got you Dubya and Trump. I don't exactly have much sympathy for its existence.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#155252: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:04:15 AM

There is something (for a non-American like me) inherently hilarious about an organization like the Electoral College not only causing the situation it's supposed to prevent (Having someone without the qualities to become president of the USA) and then being unable to do its actual purpose to prevent that from happening.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#155253: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:04:46 AM

[up][up][up] @Bense: We are suggesting that the Electoral College is un-democratic, an observation that is patent given that it can (and occasionally does) supersede the popular vote. It also creates distortions in voting patterns, such as the need for candidates to focus on specific states while campaigning and ignore others. Lastly, it gives rural voters disproportionate power compared to urban voters due to the weighting benefit given to the small states.

While these things may have been the intent of the Founders, they have undeniable problems, among them that they can allow a small tail of ideologically committed voters to wag the dog of government amid an environment of general apathy towards politics. They also magnify the weaknesses of the two-party system.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:05:56 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#155254: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:04:58 AM

The way I understand bringing up the popular vote is that it to some extent debunks the idea that Clinton lost because the majority of the country did not want her nor the ideas she represents.

Which seems like a valid point because winning the popular vote does mean that a majority of people (well, a majority of the people who did vote- and a slim one at that) voted for her.

I mean I wouldn't take that to mean that Democrats should conclude that "Hillary did nothing wrong" and there should be no attempts to change/improve, but I think it does call into question the extent to which Democrats need to change, especially if those changes are supposed to involve throwing minorities under the bus.

Because IMO, the knowledge that Clinton (narrowly) won the popular vote seems to suggest that to win, Democrats need to do better in getting out the vote among the minority voters who are a strong/essential coalition of support (especially in the Southwest), and then make changes that would win (back) voters in the states that narrowly tipped to Trump.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#155255: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:13:57 AM

Observation: Is there any Republic (or even monarchy, I think Britain also follows the popular vote for Prime-Minister) in the free world that wants a electoral college? From a Brazilian perspective at least the idea sounds patently absurd. Brazil had a lot more dictatorships in its past than the US (depending on how you measure things, about four or five coups), but literally all of them were caused by a internal coup d'etat from within the government, and popular vote had absolutely nothing to do with it.

So it's rather hard to see the use of it.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:14:25 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#155256: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:17:29 AM

[up] Same here. I really don't see any meaning to that antidemocratic piece of bullshit.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155257: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:17:47 AM

I understand that it would cause the cities to have more power to elect people, but aren't there already measures to protect the interests of more rural/less populous communities as it is?

edited 15th Nov '16 9:22:33 AM by Draghinazzo

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#155258: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:18:35 AM

The hypothetical use would be if people voted for somebody like Hitler and the College saw them for the disaster they were and voted otherwise.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155259: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:22:11 AM

@Hodor2: What the democrats need to do is find a way to bridge the gap between working class demographics of different races. Many of the struggles faced by black working class America aren't nearly as distant from the struggles of white working class America as people in those demographics might imagine, and if a democrat could manage to bring together working class voters of all stripes into an electoral coalition, you'd be very hard pressed to beat that, and it has happened before.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:24:13 AM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155260: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:23:28 AM

You'd probably need a big focus on economic issues. Questions of racial discrimination and civil rights are important, but entirely for minorities. On the other hand, with a good economic policy, everyone benefits.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#155261: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:23:28 AM

They're features, not bugs.

The concerns that matter to minority groups deserve to be addressed by the majority, not ignored. The Electoral College ensures that presidential candidates cannot ignore everything but the cities on the coasts (which are the majority of the population) and be successful.

It's the same reason we have two chambers in Congress, with one markedly less democratic than the other.

There may well be problems with it, but it's the best system available. Other nations would want an electoral college if they understood what it does.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:24:49 AM by Bense

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#155262: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:24:10 AM

[up][up][up][up] The problem, Capsace, is that while working-class voters share similar economic concerns, the racial divide is extreme and persistent, and many people on the white side of that line will simply not vote for any candidate who promises to treat blacks (or Hispanics) equally with them. It's a seemingly intractable problem in American politics.

[up] That's a pretty big strawman there, Bense, with lots of packed assumptions. The Federal system is antiquated; there is no magical value in state sovereignty that should give people on one side of a line more voting power than people on the other. We are all citizens of the United States first. When we forget that, we lose our country.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:26:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#155263: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:24:12 AM

@Gaon: Not really the best comparison with the UK (or any parliamentary system) since you are not directly voting for Prime Minister you are voting for the potential Prime Minister's party, or more specifically in some cases the local MP who happens to be the member of the potential Prime Minister's party.

A better comparison would be in a Presidential system that does directly elect it's Head of State, which I honestly can't think of one to be honest.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:24:28 AM by Mio

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#155264: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:24:35 AM

[up]x6 The current situation, you mean?

edited 15th Nov '16 9:28:13 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155265: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:25:34 AM

[up][up][up] That's one perspective. The other is that progressives simply don't understand how to communicate with these communities, expressed here. Racism certainly plays a role, but the notion that rural white America is "beyond saving" among much of the American left doesn't help matters.

I seriously doubt you'd be able to win over the white working class to the extent that democrats win the black working class, but I strongly disagree with the notion that democrats can't do better there without compromising on social issues.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:28:57 AM by CaptainCapsase

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#155266: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:26:07 AM

But see, I'm using Brazil as a case study here: If the purpose is to stop tyrants, it wouldn't have really helped in Brazil's case. And neither did it ever serve that function in the US. The ultimate failure of the system might be this election, where the closest equivalent to a modern-day American Hitler has been elected and The College will go "yeah sure go ahead".

It's the kind of idea that made sense from a 18th century perspective, but kind of like the Founding Fathers's conception on gun control (you know, from a time when "guns" here meant "muskets" and not goddamn semi-automatic machine guns), seems hopelessly outdated nowadays.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155267: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:27:04 AM

There may well be problems with it, but it's the best system available. Other nations would want an electoral college if they understood what it does.

That's a very US-centric view and I promise you it's not really accurate.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:28:23 AM by Draghinazzo

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#155268: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:28:18 AM

@Bense: We HAD an electoral college in Argentina. We did away with it because we managed to see how anti-democratic and stupid the idea was.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:31:45 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#155269: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:28:41 AM

It's pretty offensive how every time someone points to other Republics and says "well maybe America could consider that as an option" the immediate answer is "Other Republics don't really understand democracy like the US does."

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#155271: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:29:43 AM

Most democratic nations are smart enough to not use presidental systems. An EC isn't needed if you have some sort of legislative or parliamentary model.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:30:45 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155272: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:30:03 AM

[up][up] And yet it has consistently failed to keep out candidates like Jackson and Trump, who were in their own time considered very dangerous.

edited 15th Nov '16 9:31:32 AM by CaptainCapsase

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#155273: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:33:38 AM

Because IMO, the knowledge that Clinton (narrowly) won the popular vote seems to suggest that to win, Democrats need to do better in getting out the vote among the minority voters who are a strong/essential coalition of support (especially in the Southwest), and then make changes that would win (back) voters in the states that narrowly tipped to Trump.
Another factor I've heard mentioned frequently is all of the new voter restrictions that were now in play this election. Most of these restrictions disproportionately affect voters that lean Democrat. So voter engagement is a problem, but so is actually allowing them to vote. Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a lot that can be done legally to stop this anymore (other than individual state cases? Admittedly, I am neither a lawyer nor even American so I don't have the greatest understanding of your legal system), since the government in charge benefits from it. Not to mention all of that nonsense public outcry about voter fraud. Still, I think helping people get the identification that they need to vote could be useful?

What sucks is that this and the electoral college feel an awful lot like throwbacks to a time when only white men with property could be involved in the political process, and I feel not a lot of Americans recognize how archaic that is?

edited 15th Nov '16 9:34:45 AM by Pseudopartition

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#155274: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:33:42 AM

Jackson was controversial in his time but a lot of his views were mainstream for his day and he is not considered the worst president we've had (Most historians give that distinction to Buchannan, who set the stage for the Civil War which Lincon had to clean up).

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155275: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:34:32 AM

Also, I find it ironic that the EC is being defended as a shield for minorities to rally against, when the "minorities" that most benefited from it this election are aggrieved whites who were more than content to toss the minorities who have historically suffered the most in the US and still do (black people, muslims, latinos, LGBT+ community, etc) under the bus for the promises of a snake oil salesman.

I suppose it's the lack of dialogue and echo chambers at play but I have a hard time seeing how anyone would buy into Trump's promises or assume that he is any less susceptible to being bought than the average politician. I'm pretty sure Trump operates under the motto of "greed is good".

edited 15th Nov '16 9:41:50 AM by Draghinazzo


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