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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#155051: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:16:45 PM

Don't worry. People who bluster on Facebook (or Tumblr, or Reddit) tend not to be the ones that actually vote, especially in midterms. I think the last year and a half proved that pretty well.

This is the problem. I'm not afraid of them voting—I'm afraid they'll a) stay home and b) convince their more gullible friends to stay home, resulting in a repeat of the 2010 midterms.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#155052: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:17:05 PM

"Hillary was so unpopular and mired in scandals (fabricated or otherwise) that it created a climate of voter apathy"

there is also the narrative of "Trump is the poor underdog against the evil establishment" which Hilary pretty much give face to, is not surprising at all that people just go back to Hilary everytime Trump did something bad

"he lie? she lie too!, did he said bad things to women? her husband did bad things and nobody said anything!"

In sort, Trump was not only fighting Hilary, he was sticking to the MEN!....who in this case was a women.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#155053: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:17:48 PM

You can't pardon someone who hasn't been charged, let alone convicted.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#155054: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:17:51 PM

Women's suffrage was a large-scale social movement with both rational and emotional appeals revolving around a specific group of people and how they are being harmed. It couldn't fade away because real people were directly affected by it and would continue carrying its torch for as long as it would take.

The electoral college is about as personal as tax law. How many people pissed off about it had to google it during this election to even find out what it was? Nobody cares about the EC. At least, not with the kind of passion needed for change. They only care because it cost us our candidate and there's a requisite angry period before they resume not caring. Americans have a very short attention span, especially for faceless sets of rules.

We have already proven this. We did it when President Obama did nothing about the Electoral College in 2008, when we still had majority. He did nothing because two elections later, we had long since stopped caring.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:19:32 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#155055: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:19:18 PM

Said it before, I'll say it again for posterity's sake. If the Democrats respond to this loss by moving to the right, they will disenfranchise an already-disillusioned base and screw themselves over as most of their voters stay home and most of the rightwing voters continue to vote rightwing. Every time, the Democrats try to be the responsible adult in the room and 'compromise' by watering down their already watered down legislative agendas, and every time, they get burned for it.

Well, I can't blame Obama too much for it, because he was facing an absolutely unprecedented era of obstructionism. But if the party as a whole commits to making the same mistake after what we've been seeing for the past umpteen years, they're idiots.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#155056: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:19:26 PM

Cynical me says that a "considerably more moderate candidate than Clinton" will lose 2020 for the same reasons as 2016.
I'm optimistic. Here's why:

-Trump's base, besides racists and people who want lower taxes, is primarily composed of rural whites pissed off about their lack of economic progress. None of Trump's policies will actually help these people. The economy is unlikely to improve, healthcare costs will continue into the stratosphere (check out pharmaceutical stocks today), jobs won't come back in any significant numbers even in the very unlikely event of a trade war, and these poor whites who voted for Trump will end up bitter and disillusioned with the complete lack of improvement or actual worsening of their situation. They're unlikely to turn out in the same numbers in 2020.

-The Democratic Party has been rocked to its core, turnout is likely to be much higher after being so ridiculously low.

-Even in this ridiculously advantageous (for the Republicans) environment, they still lost the popular vote and lost seats in the senate and house. Moderate Democrats won elections for governor and congress positions even in states where Trump won.

-In all honesty, Trump won't want to be President in four years, and so is unlikely to put that much effort into it.

Said it before, I'll say it again for posterity's sake. If the Democrats respond to this loss by moving to the right, they will disenfranchise an already-disillusioned base and screw themselves over as most of their voters stay home and most of the rightwing voters continue to vote rightwing. Every time, the Democrats try to be the responsible adult in the room and 'compromise' by watering down their already watered down legislative agendas, and every time, they get burned for it.

Well, I can't blame Obama too much for it, because he was facing an absolutely unprecedented era of obstructionism. But if the party as a whole commits to making the same mistake after what we've been seeing for the past umpteen years, they're idiots.

...and I think you've got things completely backwards. Based on election results, exit polling, and historical precedent. We'll see in four years.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:23:12 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155057: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:19:57 PM

Women's suffrage started out small and only became big through concentrated effort, Tobias. It didn't happen magically. The point is, people need to be made to care. The EC can, in fact, be made personal.

One person = One vote. That's a very basic slogan that is easily memorable and already exists. And it can be made to work. This "it can never happen" is bullshit and you're just beating a dead drum. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it's impossible.

[up]Are you hoping for the Democrats to move rightward or leftward?

edited 14th Nov '16 3:21:37 PM by AceofSpades

WojtekPod (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#155058: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:23:59 PM

Why they would still investigate Hillary after FBI haven't found anything criminal?

Well, if Pi S in Poland can be an example with their Smolensk plane crash investigations, then the answer is rather simple and depressing: PROPAGANDA.

I belive they will do their best to show that Dems are the party of corrupt elite by showing "hey, Hillary is being investigated by FBI and Congress - look how Dems are corrupt!". Sad thing, it works for many people. Nevermind that the evidence of wrongdoing is very small or non-existent (or at least not enough to put any actual charge agaist her). Bacause for many people, as long you are being investigated, you ARE a criminal.

They are doing it to discredit any viable opposition. And with Comey's Hatch Act-violating tricks proven to be effective, we can expect wholesale barrage of phony investigations against any candidate with "D" before the name.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155059: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:24:55 PM

Like I said, I think the democrats need to change their message and strategy a little bit, but a large part of the problem with this election as I understand it was the choice of candidate and the choices made regarding how the campaign was run (i.e rejecting Bill Clinton's advice to reach out to voters who they wrongly assumed were already in their pocket).

This wasn't really an election about policies.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#155060: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:27:48 PM

[up]Are you hoping for the Democrats to move rightward or leftward?
Right. I thought Hillary was a good candidate in terms of actual policy (bar stuff like being a hawk against Russia) but had to adopt too many economically questionable positions like a $12-15 minimum wage, backpedaling on trade deals, and higher corporate taxes to be ideal. She did this to appeal to Sanders' base, who then proceeded to note vote for her anyway. Moreover, I think going right would help them get elected. The data is in (as I quoted some pages ago), and unless you're dismissing all data that can possibly be taken from this election in general, it is overwhelmingly indicative of the country being too conservative for Hillary... but not Democrats in general.

EDIT: Ah, here it is:

-One in ten registered Democrats voted for Trump this year (per the BBC poll) vs 3% for Romney back in 2012.

-72% of people surveyed in ABC's nation-wide exit polling said that they wanted policies as conservative as Obama's or more so, while stuff like Clinton is significantly to his left.

-The most leftist progressive candidates (like Feingold and Teachout) got crushed in down ticket races, despite the considerable support they received from the Democratic Party's left wingers. Feingold lost by 3 points in the same state where Hillary lost by 1 point, while Teachout lost to her Republican opponent in a state that Hillary handily won.

-The down ticket races went in favor of the moderates even in states where Trump won. Steven Bullock just won re-election by 3 points despite Montana going to Trump by a whopping 22 points. Jim Justice was comfortably re-elected in West Virginia despite that state going for Trump by 40 points. North Carolina was the same story; the Democratic governor wins by a few votes whilst Hillary lost. There was an overwhelming number of Republicans who voted for Trump and then voted for a Democrat on the same ballot.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:31:59 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#155061: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:28:29 PM

The electoral college isn't something a social movement can solve. It requires a large number of Congressmen to knowingly and deliberately vote against their interests to appease someone else's demographic. Because many of those people who have to vote to eliminate it? Their state would riot.

As much as urban voters are condemning the EC right now, rural voters are celebrating it. That's the paradox of the EC. The system is inherently unbalanced one way or the other. Without the EC, urban voters have power over rural voters because there's more of us. We can pass laws that hurt their communities because there's too many people in cities to care what happens to ranchers.

With the EC, rural voters have power over urban voters because they have more communities. There are fewer of them spread out over a much larger stretch of land. Thus, they can pass laws that hurt wide swaths of Americans they never even have to acknowledge the existence of because those people aren't a part of their life.

Neither system is truly fair; it's just a question of which half of America gets to shit on the other half. It's not about giving one group rights that the other already has; it's a tug-of-war about which group deserves to have legislative power over the other.

Which is why it would only be possible at a time when public sentiment is turned against it and the half of the country that despises it at the moment is also the half with the power to do something about it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#155062: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:29:26 PM

Actually, she not only lost rural white voters, she also lost non-white blocs too. Reading this as a Sanders spoil is not quite accurate.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#155063: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:30:10 PM

Tobias isn't saying getting rid of the electoral vote is impossible. Just that it's way harder with mostly Republicans in office. But concentrating on getting Democrats in office first, it'll be way easier to get rid of that kind of vote later.

That's the entire point. Change strategies to make it way easier to get that kind of vote gone, by making sure we have more Democrats in office to help guarantee it gone.

Shadow?
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#155065: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:33:48 PM

Trump Wants Top-Secret Clearance for Kids

Donald Trump wants top secret clearance for his children while he is president, CBS reports. The president-elect has reportedly begun asking how he could secure top-level clearance for his adult children and son-in-law, most of whom are currently helming his transition team. Only official government employees and contractors can receive security clearance. Trump's daughter Ivanka, and sons Eric and Donald Jr., and son-in-law Jared Kushner are currently part of his transition effort, but none have any official government role, or experience in government. CBS's Julianne Goldman reports that Trump's adult children would run his business and work as unpaid national security advisors, to skirt nepotism rules. Their suggested dual roles would invite an unprecedented conflict of interests.

This is of course, not normal in the slightest.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155066: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:34:36 PM

Thenardier, you do realize that going to the right in large part requires taking on a whole bunch of questionable at best social policies? Because if the one issue you think screwed things was the minimum wage then you are at best a single issue wonk and will apparently ditch other concerns in favor of this. That is a serious fucking problem if the Democrats move "rightward" in this case.

Tobias: You say a social movement can't stop things as if the Civil Rights movement wasn't a social movement. The people in power then had to be made and convinced to vote a certain way once in power, or people who supported those positions got voted into power. Social movements and what Congressional representatives do are not, somehow, magically divorced from each other. Social movements inevitably affect what they do, one way or another. This will take time and constant reminders, but it can, in fact, be done.

@Irene; he literally said it was never going to happen a page or two back. He's continuing to hammer on that point.

[up]Another thing this is revealing is how much of what we do is acted on because of precedent and good faith, and not because we have it enshrined in law. We ought to be taking careful fucking note of all of this as things progress.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:36:27 PM by AceofSpades

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155067: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:34:59 PM

It's not just Beck. Apparently even other right-wingers (more reasonable ones, I assume) are scared of Bannon and consider him an execrable human being.

This is very not good.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:37:39 PM by Draghinazzo

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#155068: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:37:12 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
New Survey coming this weekend!
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#155069: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:37:20 PM

Thenardier, you do realize that going to the right in large part requires taking on a whole bunch of questionable at best social policies?
Moderate Democrat policies are just fine. I liked Obama. Still a bit too left for my taste. But less so than Hillary, and closer to my beliefs than anyone who ran in 2016.

Because if the one issue you think screwed things was the minimum wage then you are at best a single issue wonk and will apparently ditch other concerns in favor of this.
I said that was one of many, not the only one.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:39:01 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155070: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:38:29 PM

@Monsieur: I'm not sure if you expect millenials to become conservatives as they age, or simply to never start voting in earnest (in which case we have a illberial demoracy ala Russia by 2030), because otherwise the electorate is going to be moving left every cycle for the foreseeable future. Thanks to Trump, Generation Z will probably also hate the GOP, so this could go for decades.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155071: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:39:04 PM

Thenardier, the fact that she won the popular vote would indicate that going right would not, in fact, be all that beneficial for the Democratic party. What needs to be done is convincing people of the worth of leftist principles in their lives. Hell, the youth vote in every state favored her, and that's the future trend that the party has to look forward too. (Of course they will have to take in new data as they go on.)

edited 14th Nov '16 3:40:11 PM by AceofSpades

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155072: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:39:11 PM

This might not be the best place to ask but:

I've seen people talk about the possibility of the US going to war with Iran under this administration. What exactly is the geopolitical situation with that and what US interest is being served by going to war with it?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155073: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:40:51 PM

[up] Iran's position allows it to easily block the oil flowing out from the Persian gulf at the strait of Hormuz. the US wants control of the strait, plus the obvious oil reserves Iran itself possesses. Obviously this would occur via a puppet state rather than direct military control.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:41:44 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155074: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:41:51 PM

It has to do with the nuclear deal where Iran is supposed to dismantle their stuff. Clinton spent a hell of a long time negotiating that and Iran was probably hoping she'd stick around as an assurance of America's promises to them. Iran does not want a war with us. What Trump's going to do is anyone's guess, given his bullshit remarks about nuking Iranian sailors because they made rude gestures at US sailors.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#155075: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:42:40 PM

@Monsieur: I'm not sure if you expect millenials to become conservatives as they age,
This is consistently the case, yes.

or simply to never start voting in earnest (in which case we have a illberial demoracy ala Russia by 2030),
They hardly vote. Millennial turnout is consistently piss-poor compared to every other demographic, especially in crucial midterms. In 2012, people from 18 to 29 had 40% turnout, and 15% turnout in the 2014 midterms. Contrast that to 58% and 36.5% respectively for the general population.

because otherwise the electorate is going to be moving left every cycle for the foreseeable future.
That's what they said back in 2008.

Thenardier, the fact that she won the popular vote would indicate that going right would not, in fact, be all that beneficial for the Democratic party.
The fact that she lost in states where moderate Democrats (and Obama) won would indicate that going right would, in fact, be very beneficial for the Democratic Party. As would a whopping 72% of the country saying they prefer policies more conservative than Obama's or about as conservative.

Hell, the youth vote in every state favored her, and that's the future trend that the party has to look forward too. (Of course they will have to take in new data as they go on.)
The youth vote doesn't matter nearly as much as TV Tropes pretends it does. Sanders got like 30-70 in the youth vote, still got curb-stomped in the popular vote.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:45:26 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."

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