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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#155026: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:26:50 PM

People are saying that Mitch Mc Connell issued a gentlemanly agreement not to nuke the filibuster so long as the Dems don't go nuts with it.

I'm confused because my understanding was that he cannot nuke the filibuster. Not without the 2/3 majority required for a Constitutional Amendment, which he does not have.

Compulsory voting also wouldn't work too well under the EC, which I again feel compelled to mention. I just hope that the EC starts being a bigger part of the conversation.

We hoped that in 2000 too. Won't happen. In four years' time, nobody will care about something so political as the EC. It's like tax law or financial accounting. It's such a mechanically legal thing that most people can't muster up the enthusiasm for the shits they're needed to give.

People only care about the EC during the brief window of time where we all read up on it and promptly get pissed off about our candidate's crooked loss. That window is the only time in which anything could be done. Which means a major party would need to lose the Presidency due to EC shenanigans in order to whip up a frenzy about it, while also gaining the Congressional majority needed to do something about it.

In the wake of this election, nothing will happen to the EC because Republicans hold all the cards and they have no interest in tearing down a crooked system that always benefits them.

Or more accurately, less than half of that half-ish who bothered to vote cast their ballots for Trump (I mean, the same goes for Hillary, but the point is, Trump did not even get a plurality of the vote from the people who could be bothered to vote).

This. There are ~218,959,000 eligible voters. Of those, Trump won 60,371,193 votes of those counted thus far. He's won the Presidency with the support of 27.57% of eligible voters.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#155027: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:28:12 PM

DONALD 'FLIP FLOPPING' TRUMP: Oh, hey, I just want to say that I am going to deport all latinos and muslims, that I love all latinos and muslims and that we should do all we can to make them feel welcome, that I am going to, yes, that I am going to tear NATO apart, that I support NATO wholeheartedly — yes, I do — that I am going to repeal Obamacare on my first day of office, yes I will, and that I'm going to keep key parts of Obamacare intact. Yes I am.

edited 14th Nov '16 2:51:26 PM by kkhohoho

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155028: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:28:40 PM

[up][up] The fillibuster is based on the ground rules established during each new session of congress; were they to limit the amount of time a congressperson could speak...

edited 14th Nov '16 2:28:46 PM by CaptainCapsase

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#155029: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:33:14 PM

If nothing else, the results of this election has helped more people realize again how bullshit the Electoral College is and how much it's in need of serious reform if not abolition. I still haven't forgotten 2000. I can only hope that this will make sure that others don't either.

It's also given the left a chance to do some soulsearching. Particularly its tendency for echo chambers, moralizing and callout culture which at best are more likely to cause "woke" people to wall themselves in an ever shrinking pool as a sort of unconditional elect of social justice, and at worst is aimed more at stroking one's own ego or progressive credentials than actually changing minds, a behavior which would cause the left to cannibalize itself sooner or later. Many are buying so hard into the perfect solution fallacy that they'd rather destroy themselves than compromise and accept that they can't force people to change.

As well as the DNC's need to connect to its base and produce passionate politicians at the ground level instead of grooming a small circle of elites. Unfortunate that it had to happen at the worst time, but the sooner we become aware of these problems the sooner we can take steps to fix them. There's always hope that we can change the Senate as early as 2018, to minimize the harm the Republicans can do, and use the fresh reminder of our system's inadequacies to push for harder reform.

edited 14th Nov '16 2:43:25 PM by AlleyOop

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#155030: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:34:19 PM

Yup, it's a procedural thing.

Though the question is how far is "too far?" Do we start, for instance, by blocking the Obamacare repeal on day one?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#155031: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:35:23 PM

[up][up] Unfortunately, if we look at the example of the UK, it's very likely a significant number of people will want to double down on the tendencies that got us to this point, and the left is likely going to be fighting a civil war for the foreseeable future over the soul of the party.

edited 14th Nov '16 2:35:30 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155032: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:37:47 PM

Considering that's basically going to be an issue on day one, it seems as likely as any, Ogodei'

@Tobias: Acting like it's ABSOLUTELY never going to happen is extremely defeatist. Yes, it's a structural, procedural thing. But the only true way that people will never care about it is if people never talk about it. And you're basically assuming we'll stop. And yes, that is a highly probable thing. But you'd have us never even consider it with that defeatist attitude.

There really is a point at which cynicism becomes unhelpful.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#155033: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:42:02 PM

If the stuff I'm seeing on Facebook is any indicator of actual trends you won't be changing anything in 2018. Not with the Progressive Unicorn Brigaders vowing to unseat every Democratic Senator and Congressperson who didn't support Saint Bernie. I'm having to go past post after childish post about how the DNC "betrayed the people" by not picking Sanders, and about how the entire party apparatus has to be purged to "further the revolution". There's also a total lack of self-awareness among the same people—many of whom voted Stein or Johnson to "teach the DNC a lesson"—about the role that they themselves played in getting Trump elected. So far as they're concerned it's all the fault of the Democrats for not picking a candidate who played to their pet issues.

I don't think I need to tell you that most of those making posts like this are white, and that well over half are men. They're prepared to throw minorities under the bus and ensure that Trump gets an even more emasculated Senate, just so long as they get their dream candidate next time. I've tried pointing out to them that a far more constructive use of their time would be targeting weak Republicans and replacing them with Democrats from their faction, since then they'd have more influence over the DNC, but that's just gotten me screamed at. Apparently to these people torching the DNC comes above all else, including protecting those people they claim to defend. Because when you get right down to it, "the people" they claim the DNC betrayed, aren't the minorities who will suffer under Trump—no, it's their fellow bros.

I hope these people aren't representative. I have a sinking feeling that they are.

edited 14th Nov '16 2:42:33 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155034: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:47:32 PM

Why would you take any social media as an indicator of anything? For one thing, those are basically just private citizens voicing their concerns and frustration, not actual people running for any kind of office. Plus, all social media sites are subject to getting trapped in self reinforcing bubbles regarding this sort of thing.

You want to see what the party does in response to these things. That's a better way to predict things.

Edit to add; Yeah, Jill Stein got less of the vote than Gary Johnson. Somehow I doubt those folks are representative of the Democratic party, since a lot of Jill Stein supporters were also part of the Never Hillary camp.

edited 14th Nov '16 2:48:35 PM by AceofSpades

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155035: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:52:25 PM

I feel like the left might go into a bit of a "civil war" of its own at this point.

Part of the problem is that I feel a lot of people aren't willing to settle for anything but the best to the point where they border on absolutist. The people Ambar is talking about, who protested by voting for Stein or Johnson, is one example. As if somehow the fact that TRUMP IS THE OTHER candidate isn't enough of a reason to band together. You can only afford to have that sort of attitude when things are going extremely well and the risks are rather small.

Divided We Fall at its finest. Even if some people have to bite their tongue or hold their nose, it's better than letting clowns and insane fundamentalists and bigots run the country.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#155036: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:54:23 PM

"They can't scare us with Trump. He won't be that bad." That's what these idiots said to me during the election, and that's what they're saying now.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155037: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:56:07 PM

I'm assuming there's a good deal of willful ignorance there, but Aceof Spades has a point that these people might not necessarily be representative of anything but a small fringe.

I just hope the democrats have a good plan going forward.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#155038: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:57:16 PM

If the stuff I'm seeing on Facebook is any indicator of actual trends you won't be changing anything in 2018. Not with the Progressive Unicorn Brigaders vowing to unseat every Democratic Senator and Congressperson who didn't support Saint Bernie. I'm having to go past post after childish post about how the DNC "betrayed the people" by not picking Sanders, and about how the entire party apparatus has to be purged to "further the revolution".
Don't worry. People who bluster on Facebook (or Tumblr, or Reddit) tend not to be the ones that actually vote, especially in midterms. I think the last year and a half proved that pretty well.

I bet you anything that Sanders will be utterly marginalized, attempts to unseat establishment Democrats will fail, most of Bernie's preferred candidates (like Feingold and Teachout before them) will lose, and a considerably more moderate candidate than Clinton will be chosen in 2020.

edited 14th Nov '16 2:57:36 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155039: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:58:04 PM

I was also pointing out the folly of relying solely on one social media site as proof of anything. That sort of thing can seriously warp your perceptions of what's going on.

At this point we should be watching what the Democratic party is doing.

[up]I can't tell if you're trying to be optimistic or a pessimist.

edited 14th Nov '16 2:58:43 PM by AceofSpades

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155040: Nov 14th 2016 at 2:59:13 PM

I don't necessarily think being more moderate was the problem here, just that Hillary was so unpopular and mired in scandals (fabricated or otherwise) that it created a climate of voter apathy. She still won the popular vote, so I imagine someone who didn't have that baggage and was a bit more "charismatic" might have been able to turn things around.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#155041: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:00:10 PM

I want to know if there's anything we can do on our behalf to influence the higher-ups there with some of the things we've talked about in these threads. Make them at least aware even if we can't force them to listen to us. I'm sure they've read the editorials, but they're also in danger of falling prey to the echo chamber issue.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#155042: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:05:06 PM

[up]I can't tell if you're trying to be optimistic or a pessimist.
Optimistic; I'm an optimistic person in general, hence why I thought Trump and Brexit would never happen.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:05:42 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#155043: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:08:44 PM

@Tobias: Acting like it's ABSOLUTELY never going to happen is extremely defeatist. Yes, it's a structural, procedural thing. But the only true way that people will never care about it is if people never talk about it. And you're basically assuming we'll stop. And yes, that is a highly probable thing. But you'd have us never even consider it with that defeatist attitude.

There really is a point at which cynicism becomes unhelpful.

Wasting time chasing impossible pipe dreams instead of coming up with legitimate solutions to real problems is unhelpful. Yes, the Electoral College is a problem, but with a GOP majority and President Trump, it is not a problem we can solve today. The Republicans want us to spend four years crying about why Bernie couldn't have the nomination and screaming about the Electoral College because that's four years not spent coming up with practical ways to beat them in 2020.

This is a backburner problem. At best, it will remain unsolvable until such a time as we have both President and Congressional majority in the blue. And even then, as happened with Obama, solving it will still require us to remember in 4, 8, 12, or however many years that we cared about it in 2016. And rest assured, we'll have many other things we care about by then.

Part of the problem is that I feel a lot of people aren't willing to settle for anything but the best to the point where they border on absolutist.

There's a phrase for that. "Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."

edited 14th Nov '16 3:11:34 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#155044: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:10:34 PM

As many as five separate congressional committees have positioned themselves to continue investigations into Clinton’s private email setup from her time as secretary of State.

Some people are saying Obama should pardon Clinton before he leaves office. [1]

I disagree, but what do you guys think?

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#155045: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:11:03 PM

The Republicans want us to spend four years crying about why Bernie couldn't have the nomination
Why would you cry about that? He lost because he got far fewer votes. Done.

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#155046: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:11:42 PM

Now, the best case scenario is that the Electoral College give Congress a reason to despise them, but that would require a large-scale mutiny. For instance, if enough Red electors voted Hillary that she won the election, it would be a smoking gun she could turn around and use to push the immediate dissolution of the college - with full support from a belligerently pissed off Republican Congress.

That's a situation where it would be on the table. But not "Trump wins, Congress fully red."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#155047: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:11:43 PM

What more do they have to investigate if the FBI already decided they couldn't prosecute her on anything?

This just seems like salt in the wound and it's utterly pointless.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#155048: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:13:09 PM

Cynical me says that a "considerably more moderate candidate than Clinton" will lose 2020 for the same reasons as 2016. Or maybe optimistical me, because I suspect that "considerably more moderate candidate than Clinton" may have too many dubious policy choices.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#155049: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:14:32 PM

[up][up]It is pointless, because there's no evidence of any wrongdoing, despite Wikileaks trying to convince people otherwise.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:14:45 PM by higherbrainpattern

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#155050: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:14:45 PM

The way you're shutting down the possibility sounds like you think it should never even be addressed, Tobias. Which is markedly unhelpful. Hell, women's suffrage was once called a pipe dream, and took decades to accomplish. Everything has a start, and some thing take a long time to become possible because people work for a goddamn long time.

Also, please note that there was nothing in anything I've said that means we shouldn't be pursuing other things. The situation we've got now has more than one solution that will help.

@Demonic: Pardon her for what? She hasn't been charged with anything. How can she be pardoned for anything she hasn't been charged with? (And Trump is proving spineless on that and backtracking because he hasn't got a leg to stand on since the FBI et all have decided there's nothing to charge her with. Trump pursuing anything is a waste of law enforcement's time.)

edited 14th Nov '16 3:17:02 PM by AceofSpades


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