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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#153001: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:29:47 PM

Like literally absurdly nearly an even split it was that close an election. Hell, without the EC she might have won on the popular vote.

edited 9th Nov '16 9:30:16 PM by AceofSpades

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#153002: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:31:59 PM

She did win the popular vote, so if that mattered she'd have won.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#153003: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:34:03 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Inter arma enim silent leges
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#153004: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:43:23 PM

No, Ace Of Spades, you just don't get it at all.

I don't expect Donald Trump's direct help with either
I'm done trying to explain the atmosphere to you because you're clearly closed there.

Let me try this instead, let's say in an English class, teaching why documents about a social subject are wrong or right take precedent over learning how to properly cite to any given standard? Let's say, social context is mandated in the teaching of geometry or physics. Let's say you actually read a syllabus in which changing students into agents of social change is the goal put forth, rather than say, making sure they understand the workings of the economy in depth.

Teachers ideally wouldn't be giving their opinion on the subject matter, but it's going to happen anyway. It's a stupid thing to fight and is not the sort of thing that is drawing the neocons and self described liberals together. Students will have opinions too. They will argue with those of the teacher, or just for the sake of it, or derail lectures with small talk. That's just an expected thing, not the bane of the modern university. Actual indoctrination is why we push such things such things as academic freedom proposals, to ensure students are actually getting their money's worth when they pay for what they think is going to be a useful for employment.

Do you get that? It's not thought police, it's not calls for disinterested lectures devoid of emotion or personality, it's about abuses of a public system in misguided pursuit of political change. What, are you upset because I posted about leftists being the primary offenders? Most people at university are left leaning anyway, so be they part of the solution or problem they're probably left leaning or former left leaning people who took a decidedly more conservative viewpoint. I think the current political atmosphere will help libs look past the things they usually get all touchy about and work together to take on the problem at hand because, much more insensitive and more poorly thought out rhetoric has become normalized by Mike and Donald.

Efforts toward secularism related to the Horowitz case specifically. If more people stop looking at religion as something above reproach that must be included in everything, it will both help them look past his more negative opinions on the subject while at the same time reducing his need to share them in the first place, so we can, you know, work better together. The two issues aren't inherently related and one of the things that does is indirectly in a way you're not even trying to see, so I don't think I can help you any further, if answers are what you're really after. If you're just interested in telling me I'm wrong, then feel free to continue.

Buldogue's lawyer
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#153005: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:43:33 PM

Republicans kept all three elected branches. They did so on a platform of "take America back from the social justice people and give it to the common (white) person."

If this bothers you, there needs to be a huge reappraisal of American liberalism. The way I see it going now is that we're going to see the Democrats become the part of the elites, by which I mean educated people. Who supports women's rights and cosmopolitanism, a belief in scientific data and a conciliatory foreign policy? Elizabeth Warren and anyone who owns a sweatshop is who.

The Republicans are well on the way to being the party of the common people. Blacks are probably going to get completely marginalized because they are not, ever, going to play nicely with working class whites and they might have even less in common with the educated elite. Hipanics are probably (hopefully) going to just start identifying as white.

That is a terrible outcome, btw.

Also, fellow liberals, you are now officially members of the elite.

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#153006: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:45:30 PM

Damned if you do damned if you don't. Sexism played a big role in this election.

Clinton Concedes; Pundits Decide She's 'Emotional'

They wanted to see tears. She didn’t provide them, but that didn’t make much difference.

Hillary Clinton, on Wednesday, delivered a concession speech that was, above all, an endorsement of the United States and its democracy. She told the supporters who had gathered to hear her speak that Americans must cherish the Constitution—even if they don’t agree with every outcome of its guidance. We must, collectively, she said, respect the rule of law. We must find ways to appreciate each other, and to be, in our messy way, a country. It was a speech designed both to jump-start the healing process for a weary, wounded nation, and to rebuke the anti-democratic rhetoric that has been part of the most contentious presidential campaign in recent memory. It was simple, and it was powerful.

Not, however, according to CNN. The first assessment Wolf Blitzer offered about Clinton’s concession statement, after the network’s camera cut back to its waiting roundtable of pundits, was that it was a “very, very emotional speech.” Blitzer added, of Clinton: “You saw her holding back, choking back those tears.” And then he added: “She is well known as being very, very emotional in these kinds of moments.”

It was a curious point to make, and not only because Clinton is traditionally accused of being overly stilted in her public appearances; “very, very emotional” also managed to brush aside much of the most substantive content of Clinton’s speech—all the urgent points about the benefits of liberal democracy and the peaceful transfer of power—in favor of its performance. In context, however, Blitzer’s initial assessment of Clinton’s speech made some sense. Before the speech had begun—as the pundits were chatting and otherwise filling the air—Blitzer had wondered specifically whether Clinton would tear up as she delivered her public concession of the presidency she has spent so many years of her life seeking. He was, in his post-speech focus on Clinton’s emotions, simply answering his own question.

The anchor then turned to his panelist, the CNN regular Gloria Borger. “Gloria,” Blitzer said, “you saw Hillary, Hillary Clinton, deliver a very emotional, powerful speech. Clearly, it’s not something she wanted to say.”

Borger acknowledged that. And then she talked about the apology that the speech—via its line “I’m sorry that we did not win this election”—offered. Clinton, Borger said, “came out at the top of the speech and said, ‘I’m sorry. Period.’” Borger added: “That’s what women do. They apologize right away, and say, ‘I’m sorry.’”

These were striking frames. Here was the first woman to approach the American presidency, doing the crucial work of democratic reconciliation: avowing the urgency of the rule of law, discussing her continued love for the American experiment, urging her supporters to keep hoping and fighting and believing that the American future will be better than the American past. Clinton’s voice, as she delivered the final messages of her hard-fought campaign, wavered, yes, once. She included lines like “I feel pride and gratitude for this wonderful campaign that we built together” and “this is painful and it will be for a long time.” Mostly, though, she focused on the idea that “our campaign was never about one person.” She spoke of the needs of the country—and she did so forcefully. And calmly. And with conviction. Not a tear in sight.

It was in fact Tim Kaine, her running mate, who misted up and seemed to choke back tears as he addressed the crowd before Clinton made her entrance.

And yet, according to CNN, what came through most powerfully as she conceded the presidency to Donald Trump is that Hillary Rodham Clinton, the former senator and Secretary of State, the woman who by an extremely narrow margin lost her bid to become Commander in Chief, is ultimately “somebody who emotes”—somebody who, today, “said what she was feeling, and as we suspected beforehand, not just about herself, but about all the people that she clearly thinks that she let down.”

This was all, as it happened, a fitting bookend to Clinton’s second bid for the presidency. The politician, it barely bears repeating, has had a long and complicated relationship with the American media—one that has been additionally complicated by media members’ expectations of what it means not just to be a public figure, but to be a public figure who is also a woman. “Emotion,” or “emoting,” as CNN had it, is part of that.

In 2008, when Clinton was battling Barack Obama for that cycle’s Democratic presidential nomination, Clinton made a campaign stop at a coffee shop in New Hampshire. A woman there asked her a seemingly innocuous question: “How did you get out the door every day? I mean, as a woman, I know how hard it is to get out of the house and get ready. Who does your hair?” Clinton gave her response—“this is very personal for me, not just political”—and, as she spoke, misted up, very slightly. The media who witnessed the event, both in person and through other means, wrote up the incident like so: “Hillary Tears Up On The Campaign Trail,” the Wall Street Journal reported. “Clinton Shows Emotion in Final Hours,” the Boston Globe announced. “An Emotional Clinton vows to Fight On” (Reuters). “Emotional Clinton says, This is personal” (AP). “A Chink in the Steely Façade of Hillary Clinton,” the Washington Post called the event. The Huffington Post was decidedly elegant about it: “Clinton Emotional,” it said.

Many of these assessments were favorable. (Maureen Dowd took it upon herself to wonder, “Can Hillary Cry Her Way Back to the White House?”) But they were also, in the aggregate, yet more evidence of the double bind in which Clinton found herself, repeatedly, as she fought for the presidency: Pundits expected her to be a woman, but not too much. To be feminine, but not too much. And when she gave no obvious evidence of femininity … they would find it anyway.

Which brings us back to November of 2016—and to, today, everyone from USA Today to TMZ to AOL to Vocativ to the Huffington Post to New York magazine to Time magazine describing Clinton’s speech, in the headlines they’ve selected to tell its story, as “emotional.” And to CNN’s David Gergen announcing that, in the concession, “She opened up. She opened herself up ... and you could see the pain. It was so apparent, the pain she’s going through, and you could just imagine how many tears have flowed since last night.”

Gergen seemed to want her, on some level, to be hurt. To cry. To be emotional. Not because he is cruel, but because she is a woman, and that—as Gloria Borger reminded CNN’s viewers this morning—is what women do. Back in 2008, Newsweek wrote of Clinton’s New Hampshire coffee shop exchange as “Hillary Clinton’s emotional moment.” Eight years later, despite the progress many Americans have congratulated themselves on having made, that easy assessment lives on. Right after Clinton’s speech and its analysis, CNN switched shows; John King took over as anchor. The topic, however, remained the same: “More of her emotional statement,” King promised, “in a bit.”

Inter arma enim silent leges
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#153007: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:48:46 PM

[up][up] Trump won due to his platform being "Change", from what? The here and now. Who's fault is that? Doesn't matter, it's time for change.

This was not a rejection of social justice, it was a rejection of the current ecenomic status quo.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#153008: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:50:38 PM

[up][up][up]Foreign Policy articulated it more coherently than you did, thank you very much.

Rust Belt voters: While it is cathartic to say "just let them rot on the vine", what possibly could have worked on them anyway from a Democrat point of view? "We can bring you jobs, but we are going to wind up changing your entire way of life as well"?

edited 9th Nov '16 9:51:43 PM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
garridob My name's Ben. from South Korea Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
My name's Ben.
#153009: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:50:59 PM

Weren't Obama and Clinton emblematic of social justice? I mean, guys, Occupy Wallstreet, Black Lives Matter and "the liberal elite" are some of the most hated things in politics.

edited 9th Nov '16 9:52:15 PM by garridob

Great men are almost never good men, they say. One wonders what philosopher of the good would value the impotence of his disciples.
Zennistrad from The Multiverse Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
#153010: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:51:03 PM

Talking about what the Democrats did wrong is of limited value if it fails to acknowledge that this was a really close election.

How so? Even a slightly better job of encouraging voter turnout would have tipped the election.

Even putting aside the Democratic party potentially depressing turnout by appealing to moderate Republicans repulsed by Drumph rather than going leftward, I think Hillary Clinton is just not that good at marketing herself on social media. President Obama was very good at using the tools of Web 2.0, which was still relatively new in 2008, to appeal to people who otherwise may not have voted.

By contrast, Hillary Clinton's campaign has seemingly had little focus on social media. I've seen more ads for Donald over the past three months on YouTube alone than I've seen ads for Hillary Clinton.

Of course, that may be a moot point now.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#153011: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:53:22 PM

[up]Well, it's YouTube. A cesspit is kind of what it is.

Although I highly doubt the Trump campaign ever needed to spend much on social media - the meme page types already did it for them.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#153012: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:53:39 PM

[up]X3 Not for the people who swung the election for Trump, Obama was "Change" and they voted for him, Clinton was "Status Quo" and they didn't vote for her.

edited 9th Nov '16 9:53:59 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#153013: Nov 9th 2016 at 9:58:34 PM

In brighter (if somewhat ironic) news, the new First Lady-to-be Melania Trump has sworn to combat online bullying.

edited 9th Nov '16 9:58:52 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#153014: Nov 9th 2016 at 10:00:50 PM

She should start preaching to her husband's fans.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#153015: Nov 9th 2016 at 10:06:50 PM

I'm a white male from the Midwest working a blue collar factory job (on an assembly line, in fact) and I don't see the economic appeal of Trump at all.

Even if his economic plans worked as advertised, his big proposals aren't really designed to create jobs. They're designed to kick out immigrants and cut ties with trade partners so that American workers will have to take the jobs those people are no longer doing. That's just shuffling stuff around, not actually improving anything.

For my personal sense of financial security, the two most important things the government can do are 1) regulate health insurance so that I won't be left bankrupt if I ever end up in the hospital, and 2) increase the minimum wage so that, if I lose my job, taking an entry level position somewhere else will stay pay enough to keep me afloat. Both of those are things Trump and the Republican Party keep working against.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#153016: Nov 9th 2016 at 10:19:05 PM

@Krieger 22

I guess they could say "we're going to offer you something better" like their own version of MAGA.

I really wonder if it's possible to push for the development of alternative energy startups in the Rust Belt area. Not that the Republicans are going to fight against it by abusing red tape and the like.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#153017: Nov 9th 2016 at 10:24:13 PM

"There's a lot of evidence that "white" just means "made it" in America. Since Asian Americans are generally successful, they probably identify more with the "white" label than others.

The Asians I know living in Asia certainly identify much more with whites than blacks or hispanics."

I was never much of a "brown and proud" Indian American until the Obama years. I always considered myself a liberal, but the racism of the past eight years definitely made me more conscious of my personal stake in race.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Zennistrad from The Multiverse Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
#153018: Nov 9th 2016 at 10:24:17 PM

Robert Frost once said "a liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel" and I don't think that could possibly be more applicable than it is here.

Genesisera Archduke of Austria and Patarich of the House of Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Archduke of Austria and Patarich of the House of
#153019: Nov 9th 2016 at 10:39:18 PM

[up] To be fair, the protesters aren't going to change a thing; the results are set in stone.

What the Democrats need to do now is perform an electoral autopsy the way the GOP did in 2012 and identify the ways Hillary and the party went wrong, and then have an outside candidate ignore all of it and win in 2024.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#153020: Nov 9th 2016 at 10:50:24 PM

Indirect, I'm not upset, I'm baffled by the moon logic you're using to somehow think that somehow, magically, the fact that Trump got voted in somehow will lead to the curricula of schools changing. Like, you are literally not making the logical case for that, you're just sort of expecting it to, yes, magically happen. If you can't clearly explain how you think this is even indirectly affected by the president, then you are definitely expecting it to magically happen. You are also not making the case that this indoctrination is actually happening. What even was that syllabus supposed to prove? Actually that appears to be a research paper you linked me to.

And again, you ignore the fact that Pence is a religious man. Unless you're making a case that he's going to be so bad that we accelerate towards some kind of secularism, I'm still not understanding your point. You also seem to be ignoring the Religious Right that continues to be a factor in the Republican party. I think you're getting your hopes up here. And don't think I'm not noticing that you're avoiding discussing this man specifically.

Also, it's the religious right that looks at religion as something inviolable.The conservatism you want to counteract the so called SJ Ws (which is a bullshit term, btw) is populated by RELIGIOUS conservatives who are more likely to bring about the reverence for Christian religion you say you don't want. (Again you seem to think that more secularism is magically going to happen.) The left is mostly the ones in support of separation of Church and State out of the belief that everyone should be able to worship or not worship freely. They are also against profiling on the basis of race or religion, which your first post on the subject appears to support so I'm side-eying the whole "religion as sacred" commentary. There has to be a less bigoted sounding way for you to express that opinion, but you went straight for it.

edited 9th Nov '16 11:05:02 PM by AceofSpades

Sharysa Since: Jan, 2001
#153022: Nov 10th 2016 at 12:08:09 AM

Well, that article is distressing. But considering that a lot of white women voted for the Orange One, it definitely makes sense.

I can't sleep and I almost forgot to eat dinner, so I photoshopped one of my July 4th pics and sent Chris Evans a second despair-Tweet of it.

Rage is slightly overcoming my numbness right now.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Hoarsefeathers0/status/796617684830093312

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#153023: Nov 10th 2016 at 12:10:05 AM

I feel kind of ashamed to be a white male right now. Don't know how rational that though is. I don't really know what to think beyond me spending the entire day in a Heroic BSoD.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#153024: Nov 10th 2016 at 12:11:31 AM

I don't feel anything, strangely. No emotions at all. Maybe because I have been betrayed by both my countries (The UK and US) and feel I was right to hate America, maybe because the election is at least over, or maybe because I have been drowning my sorrows with Japanese games.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#153025: Nov 10th 2016 at 12:14:13 AM

I think they German media said it the best...it observed that we are living in a "fact free era", meaning that this election wasn't decided on good arguments but emotions. Currently whenever someone brings up hard numbers or a convincing argument, the other side just screams "wrong" or "that is your opinion" instead of engaging in said argument. It is about emotions more than anyone else, and while we have more access to information than ever, most people are unable to deal with it. Instead of using the internet to find facts, they use it to find whatever fits into the world build they already have. Everything else just gets dismissed.

Sadly this phenomenon isn't just typical for the UK and the US, and I can just hope that our education system is still good enough that enough people have learned critical thinking...god knows that at least I was still taught how to question ideas and do my own research.


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