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AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#152701: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:28:27 PM

How many people got killed because they joined the KKK or the Neo-Nazis compared to how many people died because they were black and near a racist?

[down]Bullshit. If someone is spouting Nazi rhetoric near me I have the right to tell him to fuck off, I have the right to no be associated with that person and I have the right to deny them any request they direct towards me.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:30:33 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#152702: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:28:33 PM

Note that intolerance of actions or ideas is different than intolerance of people.

Yes, it's sometimes okay to kill someone you don't hate. In fact, I would say it's definitely always wrong to kill someone out of hate.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:29:43 PM by Bense

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#152703: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:28:33 PM

Note that intolerance of actions or ideas is different than intolerance of people.

Yes, it's sometimes okay to kill someone you don't hate. In fact, I would say it's definitely always wrong to kill someone out of hate.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:29:43 PM by Bense

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
64SuperNintendo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#152704: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:29:14 PM

I'm pretty sure that CDRW and Bense's overall point, or at least the point they were making before they put their foot in their mouths, is that it's dumb to generalize all people who voted for Trump as being racist bigots.

Quite frankly, I agree. Call me an internalized racist if you want, but just because some people who supported Trump are, let's say for example Klansmen, that doesn't mean that everyone who voted for him is a Klansman or that they even support the KKK.

It's a classic Hitler Ate Sugar fallacy, much like saying that if a mass-murderer likes video games, that everyone who likes video games is a potential mass-murderer.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#152705: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:29:30 PM

@Bense: That strikes me as an arbitrary distinction. Like, I would argue that killing people in general is bad, but Hitler is a case where what he's done is bad enough that it outweighs the evil done by killing him. And it similarly outweighs the evil done by hating him- for hate is ultimately a lesser crime than murder.

So why shouldn't we be allowed to Hitler?

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#152706: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:29:40 PM

No, it's not, CDRW. If people think I'm less because I'm a woman, then they don't deserve my respect. Now, they usually have it because I don't go around asking what people's political beliefs are, but in general, no, I'm not going to respect people who are going to support things like conversion camps, cutting funding to Parent Planning and then never EVER creating any other kind of local healthcare for poor communities, aiding and abetting the school to prison pipeline, and basically shitting all over mine and other's civil rights, no my intolerance of them is not somehow worse or hypocritical.

[up]People are allowed to feel whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned. They become bad people when they do bad things. As frequently happens with bigots.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:30:54 PM by AceofSpades

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#152707: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:29:44 PM

The idea that all "intolerance" is equal is extremely naive.
I'd like to elaborate a little on this one.

Intolerance for its own sake, or for a purely self-serving reason, or based on flagrantly flawed reasoning, is bad. Example: Racism, which at its best is based on pseudoscience and/or overgeneralization ("some Muslim extremists committed terrorist acts, ergo all Muslims are terrorists regardless of whether or not they're extremists").

Intolerance based on sound reasoning and for the greater good is not bad. Example: Intolerance of criminal killing (that is, killing someone for no good reason) and those who promote/defend it.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:30:40 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#152708: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:30:20 PM

CDRW is not making a false equivalence. He's giving an example of a small town that's been pissed on without so much as a second glance and then asking you why you're surprised they'll vote for [i]anything[/i] anti-establishment.

I don't necessarily think it's surprise that those people exist or a lack of understanding as to why they voted the way they did. They're desperate, and they felt ignored, so things turned out that way. It makes sense to me. We may not have expected the turnout but the results are what they are.

That's not really related to the fact that many Trump supporters are not in that situation or voted for him for those reasons. And the desperate people voting for Trump, despite their legitimate problems, were still wrong and were complicit in enabling something bad. That is about as simple as it gets.

I don't know why so many people are skirting around this and it's getting a little frustrating and too close to "BUT NOT ALL" for my liking.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:34:24 PM by Draghinazzo

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#152709: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:31:07 PM

I outright want Trump to grow up and mature. Please, please, PLEASE!

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#152710: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:32:17 PM

Gah, my post was eaten by the simultaneous post bug.

As I was saying, something I found amusing is Kellyanne Conway (Trump's campaign manager) is the first woman to manage a successful presidential campaign. So, there's some kind of glass ceiling being broken here, despite it all.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#152711: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:32:58 PM

Too bad the glass shards are falling in everyone's faces.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:33:11 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#152712: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:33:36 PM

We all know about those miserable little towns. But, as has been said many, many times, they vote against anything that would help them.

Example given: "the mines are done". We can't put coal back in the coal mine. That's not gonna happen. Even if coal wasn't killing the world (and it is) it's a finite resource. But these people vote against anyone who will put in job retraining. They vote against anyone who will expand welfare. They want the job they can't have back and that's it. And that's why their towns are dying.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:35:02 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#152713: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:35:58 PM

What we must ask ourselves is "why?"

The answer to that question is probably quite a bit more complicated than simple bigotry, though I have little doubt you'd find such attitudes in abundance in such places.

RedRob Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
#152714: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:36:43 PM

[up]x4 Even more ironic when you consider there's a child rape case filed against him, and other such stuff. Not exactly a feminist kind of person, is he?

edited 9th Nov '16 3:37:01 PM by RedRob

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet Unless I grew it. In that case, throw it in the trash.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#152715: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:37:07 PM

If someone slaps away your hand everytime you try to help, how do you help them?

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#152716: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:37:44 PM

Okay...back up people.

Are we really, REALLY have a discussion/argument on whether or not tolerating bigotry and racism is intolerance?

New Survey coming this weekend!
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#152717: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:37:55 PM

Honestly, at this point i think the Dems' problem is that we don't hate the deplorables enough. We need to nail these people to the fucking wall and make their lives living hell 24/7, same tactics they use: endless social media harrassment, doxxing, swatting, whatever it takes.

The takeaway from the election is that taking the high road just gets you kicked in the sack. Get down in the mud and be sure to bring as many of the deplorables down with you as you can when you go.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#152718: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:37:57 PM

Well, something needs to be done about these towns to reduce the amount of people who will vote for evil dogs. And so that you don't have to bail them out afterwards.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#152719: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:38:02 PM

It begins.

Senate's McConnell says Obamacare repeal high on agenda

Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch Mc Connell said repealing the Obamacare health insurance system is a "pretty high item on our agenda" for the new Congress that was elected on Tuesday, calling it the "single worst piece of legislation" from the first two years of the Obama administration.

Mc Connell told reporters he would like to see bipartisan comprehensive tax reform, and that border security should also be high on the to-do list. He expects president-elect Donald Trump to send the Senate a Supreme Court nominee soon, and to review environmental regulations put in place by Obama, including on coal.

Say good bye to your health and clean air America. Many smog filled regions will come.

May the Trumptes who voted for that to be the first to choke on it.

Inter arma enim silent leges
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#152720: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:39:28 PM

Heard on Facebook Ron Perlman is attempting to run in the 2020 elections.

Probably way late considering how fast this thread is going.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#152721: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:39:54 PM

@Ambar: I don't know. This election demonstrates however, that these people are a large enough block to win an election decisively.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#152722: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:39:57 PM

[up][up][up]Figures.

[up]Sure. But appealing to their bigotry is not an option, so what else is there to do? Should we just lie to them? "Sure we'll magically put the coal back in the mine".

edited 9th Nov '16 3:40:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#152723: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:41:11 PM

That's not really related to the fact that many Trump supporters are not in that situation or voted for him for those reasons. And the desperate people voting for Trump, despite their legitimate problems, were still wrong and were complicit in enabling something bad. That is about as simple as it gets.
But they did form the core of the Pennsylvania-Michigan-Ohio triumverate that did push Trump into office. The ones that pushed Trump into office were the Rust Belters, and the Rest Belt has to be acknowledged going into the future. He who controls the Rust Belt Spice controls the United States, to paraphrase Dune.

Should we just lie to them? "Sure we'll magically put the coal back in the mine".
Find them a solution of some sort. They want change. Maybe not coal, but the Rust Belt wants something to end their 30+ year nightmare of decline by any means possible. Doesn't have to be coal. Remember Michigan was the Car Capital of the Country and nothing came to replace it.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:43:27 PM by PotatoesRock

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#152724: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:41:13 PM

@Ogodei

Not sure how that's going to help. It's not going to win the Democrats any votes that's for sure. The thing about these people belonging to a lot of privileged demographics means it's an asymmetrical battle.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#152725: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:41:13 PM

What would Ron Perlman even be running for?


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