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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#152676: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:09:59 PM

[up]x8 No, they don't often do. It takes something truly colossal to do that, and that ain't happening.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:10:37 PM by Memers

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#152677: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:10:00 PM

@Cap

Sure. But this notion that we should just sit down and listen to the grievances of the poor Klansmen that Bense is pushing is ridiculous.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#152678: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:10:02 PM

Bill's sex scandals only came to light during his second term after he was elected, that argument is void.

Inter arma enim silent leges
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#152679: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:11:16 PM

" I can't help but shake the impression that Trump is actually quite a bit smarter than he actually seems"

He is more cunning(think he more like ork and you will get it) but not that smart, he barely win against Hilary and most of the time she used her own words against him.

in short, he have talent for deception but he is not disciplined, that would cost him a lot in the long run, right now real problem its that the american public will suffer greatly for his decisions

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#152680: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:11:32 PM

Which do nothing and will continue to do nothing aside from having a greater chance of getting you killed now.
This TED talk might make you feel better. You only need 3.5% of a populations active participation for a movement to create revolutionary change.

Also the Yugioh Abridged guy made this.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:16:52 PM by xanderiskander

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#152681: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:11:53 PM

[up][up][up][up] One way or another we have to live with these people, since this election would suggest that they comprise close to 50% of the American population, and are enough of a voting block to win elections.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:13:23 PM by CaptainCapsase

CDRW Since: May, 2016
#152682: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:11:59 PM

If your grievances are, say, "the government isn't helping me", "i'm afraid for my future and i don't have faith in this system", "i don't know whether i'm going to be able to have a job when i get my degree", those are things that can be talked about, understood or sympathized with.

These are the grievances that a great deal of the people who voted for Trump have, they say it constantly, and it's never addressed. I grew up in exactly the sort of town that voted for Trump, and outsiders don't care. Nobody else cared that we had to ration water every single year because of a perpetual drought, a reservoir that was silting up, and no money to dredge it. Nobody cared that the mines were failing and the economy with it, nobody cared about the local impact of the proposal to build a nuclear plant in the area, they didn't care about the jobs that it would create or the water that it would use up. Nobody cared about the fact that the nearest hospital is forty miles away, many of the local businesses can't afford to give health insurance to their employees, and that the Affordable Healthcare Act which was supposed to help people exactly like them is still too expensive to actually use.

Instead, at every turn, they're strawmanned into this:

"we hate these people because of the fact that they aren't white, christian, or straight"

and told to shut up because there's only one black man in town.

Is it any wonder that these people don't believe in the system and embrace anything that looks different no matter how bad it is? honestly don't know if I would have voted the way I did if I still lived there because the community is dying and the rest of the country is peeing on its grave.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#152683: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:12:03 PM

The better course is to hate bad ideas but show respect, mercy, and a willingness to understand to the people who believe them, with the hope that they may eventually change their views.

In an ideal world and demeanor, sure. I understand that respect and patience are invaluable tools in any kind of activism. And I do think that it is important to try and extend these things where possible to people who just didn't know any better.

But I think you're coming across as tone-deaf because the guy who just got elected essentially put open bigotry into power AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE IN DANGER.

And yes, even open and conscious bigots can change their views but you're basically asking someone to be perfect in the face of inferno of hate. People aren't perfect.

If you don't understand what the problem here is I'm not exactly sure what I can say that will make you understand, except to do as you're proposing and have some sympathy for the people who are going to suffer under the boot of oppression for the foreseeable future before you ask those same people to sympathize with the people who created that situation.

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#152684: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:13:41 PM

Any and all Trump jokes are now Funny Aneurysm Moments.

But he'll always be Cheeto Benito to me.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#152685: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:14:04 PM

Hating people because they want to harm others is a far cry from hating people because of who they are.
Hating anyone because of a particular trait or action is intolerance of that person.

I don't think hatred of a person is ever justified.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#152686: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:17:41 PM

Bense what you're asking for is sounding like exactly what Karl Popper warned against with his famous quote about the paradox of tolerating intolerance and how it leads to an intolerant society.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:19:36 PM by AlleyOop

Mr.Didact Keep Hope Alive from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Naked on a bearskin rug, playing the saxophone
Keep Hope Alive
#152687: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:18:21 PM

Hatred is toxic sure. But hating someone for the negative things they do is much more understandable then hating them out of fear or prejudice.

My sympathies lie much more with the minorities that will get oppressed than the bigots who feel threatened by people disadvantaged by society.

Stand Fast, Stand Strong, Stand Together
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#152688: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:19:35 PM

[up][up][up] The logic behind that argument is deeply flawed, but I lack the background in logical fallacies to articulate what kind of fallacy you're committing here. At risk of Godwin's Law, you're basically saying that we're not allowed to hate Adolf Hitler for his rabid racism that he took to such a level he was willing to destroy his own country when it failed to live up to his deluded Master Race ideal.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:19:47 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#152689: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:19:40 PM

[up][up][up][up] One way or another we have to live with these people, since this election would suggest that they comprise close to 50% of the American population.

Many many people won't live here at all and those that do will be systematically targeted with entitlement programs and even worse.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:20:39 PM by Memers

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#152690: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:19:47 PM

Bense, CDRW, you're acting as if there's an equivalency here. Not wanting to befriend a bigot because they're a bigot, thinking they're never going to be on your side because they literally see who you are as a threat to themselves, is not the equivalent to hating someone because of who they are. The people who are homophobes and racists take active steps to deny entire groups of people their civil rights. Their worth as people.

And here you are saying we should be tolerant of this intolerance. That is, in no way at all, fair. You are, in all ways, ignoring what other people are saying; that they are worried about their actual safety now that we're in an environment where this sort of thing is considered a valid opinion.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#152691: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:20:40 PM

Hatred in general is a bad thing, yeah, but hatred never been justified? That strikes me as overly idealistic.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#152692: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:22:29 PM

We're not allowed to hate Adolf Hitler, but we're certainly allowed to destroy his army and overthrow his government and execute him if we catch him for his crimes.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:24:13 PM by Bense

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#152693: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:23:20 PM

@Memers: I think you may be a bit hysterical at this time, but even if that's the case, what do you intend to do about it? Can you even do anything about it?

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#152694: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:23:50 PM

Of course it is intolerant. Hating any group because of one shared characteristic of that group (in this case, a vote) is intolerance. I find it deliciously ironic - people loudly proclaiming intolerance of the intolerant and being completely blind to the inconsistency of their own position.

Bullshit, pure fucking bullshit.

"The paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

We're not supposed to coddle and accept the beliefs of people who openly think that things like civil rights don't apply to groups they don't like.

If any element of a society chose to believe in a doctrine that is harmful to everyone else in that society, they should be called out on their bullshit. It doesn't matter if they are entitled to their opinions, it doesn't matter if they have their own concerns and it doesn't matter if they have their own struggles. They chose to adopt a set of beliefs that are detrimental to the well being of others and everyone else doesn't and shouldn't tolerate them for that.

It is was plain obvious that electing Trump will bring harmful consequences to a lot of people based solely on religion, gender, sexual orientation and race alone. There is no fucking excuse by Trump voters to feign ignorance because those issues we're put to scrutiny for over a year. They don't get to say, that discrimination wasn't at play with Trump's campaign when Breibart was leading it, the KKK and the Neo-Nazi endorsed him and that the Alt-Right rhetoric was strong with Trump.

They still voted for him knowing all that and they are liable to receive all scrutiny attached to it.

[up][up]I have Jewish blood, I am allowed to hate Hitler as much as I'd like to.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:25:37 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#152695: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:23:55 PM

If Trump was truly sincere about wanting us to come together in his acceptance speech, he would have denounced hate crimes and intimidation (such as the ones we've already seen!). He said nothing of the sort.

Also, not sure if this has been posted in the Global Terrorism thread yet, but to no one's surprise, Daesh celebrates Trump being elected. Ironically, Trump repeatedly claimed they'd be celebrating if HILLARY was elected.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:24:29 PM by speedyboris

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#152696: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:24:35 PM

These are the grievances that a great deal of the people who voted for Trump have, they say it constantly, and it's never addressed. I grew up in exactly the sort of town that voted for Trump, and outsiders don't care.

Instead, at every turn, they're strawmanned into this: "we hate these people because of the fact that they aren't white, christian, or straight" and told to shut up because there's only one black man in town. Is it any wonder that these people don't believe in the system and embrace anything that looks different no matter how bad it is?

I wasn't trying to imply those weren't real issues that many people are suffering from, or that they don't deserve attention. That's exactly why I even mentioned them in the first place. There was a cracked article talking about the rural areas where things are horrible and why they turned to Trump in the first place. I think that they were wrong but I understand why they made that mistake. I'm not trying to lump those people in with bigots or act like their problems aren't important.

The thing is, I said this:

"we hate these people because of the fact that they aren't white, christian, or straight"

For a reason. Because for a lot of people that was basically the main thing. Way too many of them. And we can't just ignore that or pretend it isn't the case. That's all anyone is trying to say.

I would also ask that you keep in mind what the state of things is presently and why people here are saying the things they are. So many of us have friends, family, or ARE people who will be deeply hurt by the fact that this man was elected. That in the face of his open contempt from anyone different than him, for muslims, black people, latinos, women, etc he was validated. None of the horrible stuff about him mattered. People are still grieving.

If you're asking people to be understanding of someone else's problems you should probably be doing the same. Just saying.

I might add that it's been mentioned many times before that those rural voters and others consistently vote against measures that would help them. I'm not going to advocate leaving them to rot at all, but I don't know how much we can really do, anyways.

Also I'm 100% behind Alley Oop, Mr. Didact and everyone else. The idea that all "intolerance" is equal is extremely naive.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:26:18 PM by Draghinazzo

CDRW Since: May, 2016
#152697: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:26:04 PM

@ Aceofspades: Your intolerance isn't any better. It is hurting people, killing communities, and actual people. But because they're people you've classified as bad, it doesn't matter. That is hypocrisy of the highest degree.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#152698: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:27:32 PM

CDRW is not making a false equivalence. He's giving an example of a small town that's been pissed on without so much as a second glance and then asking you why you're surprised they'll vote for anything anti-establishment.

I've been on that end of things before. My home county went for Trump by like 40 points because they've been in a death spiral for over 20 years with no funding, excessive regulation on small farms, and an inverted demographic pyramid because there are no jobs for young people, and nobody in Portland gives a rat's ass because they've never set foot outside city limits.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:28:01 PM by Pykrete

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#152699: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:27:33 PM

[up][up] I'd disagree with the notion that the moral absolutism of the social-left is as destructive as the bigotry on the right. Certainly right now, the right is a much bigger concern than any hypothetical, half formed authoritarian left in America.

But I do think that particular attitude is also a problem which makes it much more difficult to people to move past bigoted views.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:28:51 PM by CaptainCapsase

RedRob Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
#152700: Nov 9th 2016 at 3:27:56 PM

[up]x8 So it's okay to kill someone but not hate them? That's just seems illogical.

edited 9th Nov '16 3:29:00 PM by RedRob

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet Unless I grew it. In that case, throw it in the trash.

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