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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CDRW Since: May, 2016
#152501: Nov 9th 2016 at 12:59:19 PM

This "line in the sand" and "everybody's a bigot" bullshit is exactly what put us in this position.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#152502: Nov 9th 2016 at 12:59:24 PM

[up][up]20 years for what?

edited 9th Nov '16 12:59:40 PM by kkhohoho

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#152503: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:01:51 PM

[up][up] Is it? Because saying that someone is a bigot and that they are helping to perpetuate bigotry are different things.

Horrible things have been done with the best of intentions and from a lack of knowledge. Doesn't mean they weren't horrible or that the people involved didn't make a mistake or exhibited some kind of moral deficiency.

What Crimson Zephyr is saying is there is no excuse for acting like racism is acceptable anymore. It doesn't necessarily mean crucifying people for honest mistakes but we cannot be complicit with racism any longer.

edited 9th Nov '16 1:03:14 PM by Draghinazzo

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#152504: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:02:14 PM

In other news, this is the election where either the Electrical College proves it's a stupid system that really has no good reason to exist, or, in a much more unlikely outcome, give Congress a solid political motivation to get rid of it so next time. So that's fun.

Not quite. It's the fourth (arguably the fifth) time that the Electoral College has fucked up royally.

1824, Jackson won the popular vote and had an edge in the Electoral College, but didn't reach the number required to win. Congress went ahead and voted for his opponent John Quincy Adams to become president. (The arguable case.)

1876, Tilden beat Rutherford Hayes by about a quarter of a million in the popular vote, but lost the Electoral College vote by 1.

1888, Benjamin Harrison wins the Electoral College by about 70 votes despite losing the popular vote by about 90,000 votes.

2000, Bush-Gore, enough said.

2016.

Add onto that the times the Electoral College gave results massively disproportional to the votes, (for example, Reagan vs Carter, where Reagan got about 50% of the vote to 41 for Carter, but won the Electoral College 489 to 49) when American democracy gets redesigned the Electoral College needs to be kicked into the dumpster of history and then lit on fire.

While I don't always agree with him on everything, see CPG Grey's video on the subject below.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#152505: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:02:25 PM

I'm still fucking shocked that Cooper managed to pull out a win in NC.

I'll gladly trade him losing instead.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#152506: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:02:44 PM

It doesn't matter what their reasons were. They had to look at Trump and look at his bigotry, his fascism, his support from the Klan, his lies, and everything else and say, "that's fine with me." They're bigots. Every single one of them.
I agree with this.

There's a difference between being actively bigoted and being complicit with bigotry. Helping to perpetuate prejudice doesn't require personally holding bigoted views. I don't believe for a second that all Trump supporters were [consciously] voting for him based on bigotry. However many of them are, and those are for voting for him for other reasons are basically sending a message that they find his bigotry acceptable. This doesn't mean we can't try to understand the possible non-racist reasons why people would vote for him, or the valid problems that they have, but we can't be intellectually dishonest about what has been done.
But I also agree with this.

So where do we go from here? This is a major issue that the left needs to address. How can the next election even be won?

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#152507: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:03:08 PM

"They're bigots. Every single one of them."

Yep, that's certainly an informed opinion. I'm sure you interviewed every single one of them, walked several miles in each of their shoes, and then only then, when you had gotten the true measure of each, did you venture to make this absolute claim.

And you must have done it with all sixty-million (rounding up a bit) of them!

I applaud your thoroughness.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#152508: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:03:13 PM

Does it matter if they're bigots or not? They voted in a bigot. And you need to get him out. You may have to cut out the demonizing, if it will get him voted out in four years. Don't sacrifice people's civil rights, ever, but you might just have to think about how you can get them on your side economically, or somehow avoid nonsense like the leaked emails 'scandal.' Getting the Republicans out is the goal now; we need to do what we can to make that happen.

edited 9th Nov '16 1:07:40 PM by Pseudopartition

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#152509: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:03:26 PM

By the way, the New Hampshire senate race still hasn't been called yet.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#152510: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:04:22 PM

[up][up][up]You're really making a big effort to miss the big point being made and to what end I honestly don't know.

[up][up] [tup]

edited 9th Nov '16 1:05:35 PM by Draghinazzo

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#152511: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:04:25 PM

[up][up][up][up]Are you honestly going to do some #notAllDeplorables apologist bullshit here?

edited 9th Nov '16 1:04:55 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#152512: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:05:20 PM

@Bense if someone said they genuinely supported ISIS and/or would vote for an ISIS sympathizer would it not be a simple logical conclusion that they are radicalized and/or are sympathetic to radicals?!

New Survey coming this weekend!
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#152513: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:06:14 PM

@Bense

It doesn't matter why they voted for him. They still had to decide his bigotry was an acceptable tradeoff which makes them complicit in it.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#152514: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:07:09 PM

You know what, I HAVE interviewed a large number of people who have been posting Trump shit on my timeline. NOT ONE has given a satisfactory answer as to why Trump would make a good president. The ones who weren't outright deplorable were incredibly naively misinformed.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#152515: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:08:48 PM

@Bense: Did you miss the part where white supremacists like David Duke (a former grand wizard of the KKK) and his followers and other related people outright endorsed Trump? Because that actually happened.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#152516: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:09:03 PM

So basically if you voted for Trump you're either a bigot, ignorant or both.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#152517: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:09:09 PM

Okay, I'm going to take back a bit of what I said. It does matter if they're bigots or not, because of the increase in hate crimes we saw after Brexit. But that doesn't change what has to happen, if that makes sense?

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#152518: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:10:53 PM

I wonder if the Doomsday Clock has moved closer to midnight yet?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#152519: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:11:20 PM

What has to happen is that the whole fucking rest of the US has to band together put aside their differences, and take the fucker out of office. I don't know that we are that strong.

Enlightenment typically argues against following a single figure who would have the clout to contest DT in a popularity contest.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#152520: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:12:03 PM

By the way "they're all bigots" isn't what got us here, these people didn't vote for Trump because they were called bigots, they voted for Trump because they wanted to fuck the establishment and Trump seemed a good way to do that.

Now where the blame for that lies is multiple places. It lies with the Dems back in 2009 who didn't pass a strong enough stimulus that would help such people and not drive them deeper into anger, it lies with the Republicans who stonewalled this entire time, it lies with Trump for falsely claiming he would help such people, it lies with the media for not actually doing their job and instead pushing a horse race, it lies with the Democrat primary voters who picked Clinton instead of someone who could speak to the fears of such voters, it lies with Obama for continuing to push stuff like the TPP instead of making a lot of noise about trying to help rural failing America, it lies with the FBI director who decided to throw this election to Trump because he didn't like a pardon Bill Clinton cone gave, it lies with said voters for not actually trying to learn about how bad their choice would impact them in reality.

There's plenty of bale to go around.

edited 9th Nov '16 1:15:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#152521: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:12:13 PM

if someone said they genuinely supported ISIS and/or would vote for an ISIS sympathizer would it not be a simple logical conclusion that they are radicalized and/or are sympathetic to radicals?!
Sure. But 60 million people haven't said they genuinely support Trump or, more importantly, his stated positions - all we know absolutely is that they voted for him in preference to someone else.

Maybe they think he didn't mean most of what he said. Maybe they think he'll change now that he's president. Maybe they had plenty of other reasons to vote for him that they believed outweighed the distaste they feel for his positions.

My point is that the conclusion that they're all bigots is at best premature. They may indeed be bigots, but we don't know for certain just from their vote.

Also, having a bigot or hate group like the KKK support a politician doesn't automatically mean that everyone who supports that politician is a bigot.

edited 9th Nov '16 1:14:12 PM by Bense

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#152522: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:12:42 PM

Yep, that's certainly an informed opinion. I'm sure you interviewed every single one of them, walked several miles in each of their shoes, and then only then, when you had gotten the true measure of each, did you venture to make this absolute claim.

For now let them vent their anger in the thread. Emotions seem to be running high still and it's best they let it all out now.

Your point has been made and noted however. You should understand that those who voted for Donald Trump are still fellow citizens with reasons of their own for making their choice. Always remember that not everyone has the same experience or processes information received in the same way (and here I speak about media effects and political communication), so each citizen has different reactions and impressions on events and information that they're exposed to. Instead of demonizing or denigrating them, seeking to understand them is the best course of action. Even if it is for pragmatic reasons, their votes will be needed in any future elections. Using this thread, a forum, a website or any web-related content to gauge and extrapolate opinions or group attitudes is the worst thing you can do.

As mentioned before by myself and others, if you feel these issues concern the entire body politic, do your duty as a citizen and participate in public affairs on a permanent and continuous basis.

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#152523: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:12:57 PM

"My point is that the conclusion that they're all bigots is at best premature. They may indeed be bigots, but we don't know for certain just from their vote."

Oh my fucking god. Are you joking? THEIR VOTE IS A STATEMENT OF THEIR BIGOTRY. It's the clearest, loudest statement they could make regarding their views.

And honestly, I shouldn't have to ask a Trump supporter why they're okay with a candidate who thinks people like me are subhuman trash. We need to stop making excuses for these people!

edited 9th Nov '16 1:15:53 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#152524: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:14:02 PM

Yeah, most people didn't believe that harmless little chancellor meant anything he published in Mein Kampf either. I mean, I hate to invoke Godwin's Law

but real life has kind of done it for me.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#152525: Nov 9th 2016 at 1:15:53 PM

The important thing is to tread carefully. Fight bigotry wherever it is, and if you encounter a true deplorable then give them no mercy. But don't push alienating rhetoric like "BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT, if you ever even considered voting for Trump I want to cut all ties with you forever and ever and condemn you to hell, enjoy the blood of all those minorities you evil monster, etc". A surprising number of black, Latin, female, queer, etc voters all supported Trump in the end.

It's understandable to get angry but it's also part of how we're in this mess in the first place. Yes it's important to avoid doing the politically correct thing and tiptoeing around the real issue of bigotry (because ironically calling out racism is not politically correct) but the aggressively hostile zero tolerance comments I'm seeing from some people like Ambar definitely aren't going to do much good either. Even if it's emotionally cathartic and ethically justified, it's just not pragmatic.

Like it or not tone does matter to some extent. There's a reason why I prefer discussing politics on TV Tropes and why it did more to change my views on political issues than Tumblr ever did, even though they post about it more often. True, there's a limit to how far people can push the tone argument before it becomes a silencing tactic, but people who could've otherwise agreed or be convinced do not respond well to vitriolic language.

edited 9th Nov '16 1:17:45 PM by AlleyOop


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