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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#148276: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:04:52 PM

@Ambar

Perhaps I'm being overly cautious due to all the dirt Trump and his followers kicked up. I'll give this one to you.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:05:45 PM by SilentColossus

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#148277: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:05:24 PM

[up][up]That still just seems like the general public.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:05:44 PM by LSBK

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#148279: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:06:56 PM

Is any of it pro-Clinton?

Italics are not shouting. Italics are a way to place emphasis on certain words without raising volume.

YOU MIGHT CALL THIS SHOUTING.

This also might be shouting

   I could also call this shouting   

Seriously there are so many ways to be loud on this site. Italics are not one of them

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:08:37 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#148280: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:07:49 PM

We're not "avoiding dealing with the problem", we're saying "dealing with the problem in that way will have negative consequences later. I don't know what the best way to deal with the problem is but I know encroaching on the First Amendment is not it.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#148281: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:07:51 PM

Seriously. We bring up "maybe the climate in America is different than in Canada" and suddenly it's all "boo-hoo, you're assholes for hating on Canada".

Except that's not what you said. You said that hate speech laws are a slippery slope that will lead to a dictatorship. There are many, many countries that have hate speech laws and are not dictatorships, which makes the statement inaccurate at best, a suggestion that we are somehow dictatorships at worst.

As for the notion that the culture is radically different, as much as too many Canadians like to mock Americans, the reality is we are far, far more similar than we are different. We consume your media, watch your news, follow your elections more than we follow our own, etc, etc, etc. Culturally there's very little difference between us. And for those of you who think that we don't have our equivalent of your Trump supporters...well I cordially invite you to visit my hometown. Confederate flags and swastika tattoos FTW.

We're not "avoiding dealing with the problem", we're saying "dealing with the problem in that way will have negative consequences later. I don't know what the best way to deal with the problem is but I know encroaching on the First Amendment is not it.

Why not? If fraud being illegal doesn't mean you get arrested for lying in every day life, why are you so convinced that stricter hate speech laws will somehow lead to dictatorship or what have you?

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:10:31 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#148282: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:09:04 PM

[up]I literally never said that. What I said was

Americans are afraid to introduce laws that might have terrible loopholes to abuse

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:10:57 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#148283: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:10:58 PM

I'm so glad Crimson Zephyr doesn't frequent this thread >.>

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#148284: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:11:10 PM

[up][up]The "you" is collective. Go back and read the last page, page and a half. Whole lot of slippery slope arguments being thrown around without a basis in fact.

And before you say I shouldn't use the collective you when responding to one person, the post I was replying to opened with you declaring that "we said". You invoked the collective first at which point I get to talk about what the collective is saying.

[up]Um, he does.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:12:33 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#148285: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:12:39 PM

You can't claim to be using a collective you in response to a direct quote from a single person.

Yeah, I meant "I".

oops sorry about that

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:13:29 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#148286: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:12:56 PM

I'm gonna toss Neil Gaiman's essay on defending 'icky' speech in the ring for the heck of it (though the subject is porn and not hate speech). Gaiman runs a foundation that's actually active in running the legal defenses of artists in first amendment cases.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:14:07 PM by Elle

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#148287: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:13:14 PM

Y'know what might be a good idea? Some kind of official sanction against rhetoric like what Trump said that caused this. It would be too much to actually press legal charges against him, but maybe limit his funding in some way or something like that?

Something along the lines of 'if somewhere is arrested for voter intimidation, the total votes from that area should be adjusted against the favoured party of the person doing the intimidation' would be nice, but that's probably hard to implement.

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#148288: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:13:39 PM

I'm interested in watching NV right now. How's it looking?

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#148289: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:14:30 PM

Oh, voter intimidation and suppression is highly illegal. Problem is, we can't tie it directly to the man himself. So we can't exactly throw him in jail for it. Having minions do your bidding and take the fall for it must be wonderful.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#148290: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:17:05 PM

I'm on the board with the "keep the First amendment" here, and I'm not even American!

In France, legislators are sometimes discussing "right not to be offended" laws that are thinly-veiled blasphemy laws. Such as soon after the Charlie-Hebdo attack...

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#148291: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:19:29 PM

Wait. As in, France was debating making poltical cartoons illegal, or....

That sounds like a massive case of Blaming the Victim.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:19:56 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#148292: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:20:00 PM

The way I see it, the 1st Amendment keeps some kind of bizarre equilibrium between the worst of the right and the left, and neither side must prevail, because whichever does will have far less resistance forcing their worldview on everyone else. At the same time, enough moderates and centrists in either direction provide a sturdy buffer against the aforementioned emotionally heated, polarized groups who see the other "side" as acolytes of Satan.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:26:57 PM by nervmeister

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#148293: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:20:38 PM

Oh, of course it's illegal, but the problem as I see is that that doesn't stop it from being an effective tactic. You throw a Trump supporter who's already voted in jail for intimidating 20 Hillary supporters, and it's a net loss for Hillary, because Trump doesn't care whether or not some of his supporters land in jail.

So the system should make sure it ceases to be an effective tactic- give the candidates incentives to discourage their supporters from trying it.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#148294: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:24:43 PM

I have... doubts as to its overall effectiveness. Open intimidation tactics may also swing another voter's votes. The Clinton voters may come back after teh police have been called. They're also likely not carrying any campaigning materials, since campaigning on election day is forbidden. People don't generally discuss their political views with total strangers.

Oooooh, but in a small town everyone knows everyone already.... I could see how in some districts that would be a problem.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#148295: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:33:17 PM

Come now. The reason it's highly illegal is because it's been effective in the past. Nazis intimidate black people and nobody involved is surprised by how that affects the results.

Like, maybe some people will come back after the police drag the guy off, but not all of them will.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#148296: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:35:09 PM

Also, election day is a work day for most people and they may only have that half hour of their lunch break to get to the polling place.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#148297: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:35:44 PM

By the way, not to veer too far OT, how bad was racism in Canada before all the hate speech laws took effect? I at first glance would assume it must've been worse than the racism here stateside if those measures were needed to "quell the flames" as it were.

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#148298: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:37:36 PM

@blkwhtrbbt: I suspect a mentality of "if the muslims can sue, maybe they won't blow people up instead".

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#148299: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:40:17 PM

[up]Wha? Terrorists (in general) dont give a rats ass about using the legal system to resolve grievances.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:44:59 PM by nervmeister

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#148300: Nov 3rd 2016 at 1:42:04 PM

It's only a matter of time before one of the intimidators gets shot.

edited 3rd Nov '16 1:42:10 PM by Bat178


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