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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#61826: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:27:10 AM

And I'm concerned about things getting done. We've run with FREEDOM of the Insurance Markets for years. Their freedom has done dick all and premiums are inflating.

Freedom might work in some areas, but it doesn't work on every area.

I'm more concerned about fulfilling Malow's hierarchy of needs at relative quality over relative freedom. I prioritize the ability to not starve and die and get actual healthcare over freedom to choose a brand of insurer.

Then again, I've been forced to deal with extremely rough Real Life circumstances for the last few years, those tend to prioritize safety over freedom.

soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#61827: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:27:59 AM

The one that lets me do what I want to do, go where I want to go, and believe what I want to believe.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#61828: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:30:21 AM

[up]Then move to a deserted island. That is an utterly impossible ideal in any distinct nation. I can guarantee that if the Republicans ended up in total control, they'd do quite a lot of things that would really restrict your freedom. Any political party would.

Besides, you're forgetting that true freedom includes the freedom to die. A lot of people really don't want that to be a viable option.

edited 20th Aug '13 10:35:41 AM by Zendervai

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#61829: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:36:17 AM

[up] Speaking of... US Senate just passed a bill that would ban certain types of body art and piercings. It's going to the House now.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#61830: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:36:48 AM

The trouble is, and the trouble with the Paulist Liberatrian analysis, is that freedom is not necessarily an exclusive preserve of politics. Economic circumstances are far greater destroyers of liberty that most governments. If you want to go where you wish and do what you want, then the solution is to work hard so that you can. That's the Achaemenid plank, at least. But there needs to be work, people need access to the education and skills that can grant them the ability to work, and they definitely need access, unfettered and free at the point of use, to the care that can keep them in health. By your definition, Soban, how free is a single mother on welfare trying to support a child? Can she really do what she wants and go where she wishes?

[up]

That's mind-bendingly idiotic, and hopefully unconstitutional. Seems something that should be left to the states, at the very least. Interestingly, the "nay"s were all Repubs.

EDIT: Because the article is stupid as hell - a "Senator from Mountain View" in the US Senate getting something passed with a 26-4 vote? It's just Arkansas.

edited 20th Aug '13 10:43:06 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#61831: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:37:38 AM

The one that lets me do what I want to do, go where I want to go, and believe what I want to believe.
And how does that have to do dick all with health insurance? wild mass guess

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#61832: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:40:45 AM

[up][up] Yeah, and it really sucks because I always wanted to get some scarification done some time before I die. It's already really hard to find anywhere that'll do it. sad

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#61833: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:43:51 AM

[up]

It's just Arkansas. Read the original article.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
RTaco Since: Jul, 2009
#61834: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:49:54 AM

Soban: The logical extension of "Freedom>Everything Else" is that there should be no laws.

Having law enforcement reduces your freedom and the number of choices you can make, too. The idea of regulations on health insurers is no different than regulations on people against drunk driving.

edited 20th Aug '13 10:50:29 AM by RTaco

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#61835: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:51:36 AM

It'll probably be stopped in the Arkansas Senate. Probably.

Maine Governor Paul LePage: Obama 'hates white people'

edited 20th Aug '13 10:53:38 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61836: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:57:06 AM

Would Obamacare illegalize medical insurance, or just add a bottom line for people who have none?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#61837: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:58:03 AM

[up] Last I checked, the second one.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
KBSL Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#61838: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:58:41 AM

[up][up][up]I've heard that racial politics don't work well in Maine, because as it is the whitest state. most people don't really have any reference for all of the racist stereotypes such as the "welfare queen".

edited 20th Aug '13 10:58:57 AM by KBSL

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#61839: Aug 20th 2013 at 10:59:02 AM

@Achaemenid: Good to know. I still think it's a bullshit law though. sad

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#61840: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:01:47 AM

Okay, follow up question.

If you are still able to pay for an insurance company of your choice instead of using the Obamacare, how has your freedom of choice been restricted in any way?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#61841: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:04:01 AM

[up] I have no idea. I can't follow their Insane Troll Logic well enough, but it has something to do with taxes.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#61842: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:08:29 AM

In the end, it comes back to that fundamental philosophical divide between freedom-from versus freedom-to, or individualism versus collectivism, or negative liberties versus positive liberties.

The maximum individualist position is an interesting theoretical exercise but it is completely impractical in a complex and technological society. Taken to the ultimate extreme, it means living in the wilderness, wearing animal scraps, and scavenging berries to supplement what you can kill with your bare hands.

The reason it falls apart is that it imposes an arbitrary distinction between rules that are a condition of one's existence and rules that are imposed by an authority. For example, the need to eat is taken as natural and proper whereas being told not to prepare food that's poisonous to other people is taken as an imposition.

edited 20th Aug '13 11:10:20 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#61843: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:09:19 AM

[up][up]It's pretty simple really, government provides more then there is more we have to pay for. We don't want to pay for a lot of this stuff. (What that stuff that is varies from person to person. I'm in favor of education spending for example.)

edited 20th Aug '13 11:09:42 AM by soban

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#61844: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:11:22 AM

If you are still able to pay for an insurance company of your choice instead of using the Obamacare,
IIRC You're offered a select group of insurance plans from companies joining up with the government, if you can't get employer insurance or afford it yourself. Obamacare isn't a singular program.

Though a bunch of companies are dropping their highest tier "Cadillac" plans, but a quick glimpse seems to indicate such plans might be half responsible for our soaring premiums?

It's pretty simple really, government provides more then there is more we have to pay for.
Well in theory, you'd potentially be paying in taxes a price similar to the private insurance that got replaced... Not seeing an issue over than "Government".

edited 20th Aug '13 11:13:29 AM by PotatoesRock

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#61845: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:15:34 AM

@soban: Deciding the combination of things that we are willing to pay for as a society versus what we require individuals to pay for on their own is the purpose of having a legislature. You may declare an arbitrary line in the sand, but that doesn't mean others agree with you, and the result is a course of action that is agreed upon by the majority of Congresspersons. That's how government works.

What's going on now is that one side of that debate lost and is now attempting to sabotage all operations of government until they get their way.

edited 20th Aug '13 11:16:10 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RTaco Since: Jul, 2009
#61846: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:16:03 AM

We don't want to pay for a lot of this stuff.

I imagine the people who could lose their jobs and homes with a single injury or illness would consider this worthwhile spending.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#61847: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:18:58 AM

Yeah, when it's a choice between really expensive insurance or slightly higher taxes, I think most people would choose the taxes. In a lot of countries, people actually picked the taxes.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#61848: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:20:42 AM

In every country where the option was raised, people chose the taxes. Except the United States, of course.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#61849: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:21:06 AM

@Fighteer, lets be honest here. Everyone knows that what we have is a law that had to be passed without modification in the 11th hour. There were and are a lot of strong feelings about this law and if we should have it. Thanks to the fact of how it was passed, lost might not be the best word for it. A lot of people feel that it was passed without going through the proper channels.

@R Taco They get a vote too. Just don't expect me to use my vote to vote to pay for something I don't want to pay for.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#61850: Aug 20th 2013 at 11:24:14 AM

A lot of people feel that it was passed without going through the proper channels.
Last I checked, Congress was the proper channels.


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