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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#417651: Nov 27th 2023 at 4:54:09 AM

Yeah, it's not really an "original sin", but it's more that it's a system that very, very obviously aids and abets a lot of really terrible people getting positions of power and wealth and, in recent decades, leads to a lot of borderline suicidal planning and thinking because of INFINITE PROFIT NOW overriding any considerations like long-term viability or whether or not there will be a market if things like global warming go nuts.

BigBadShadow25 With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg. from Basement at the Alamo (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Desperate
With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg.
#417652: Nov 27th 2023 at 5:08:33 AM

Saw a joke on SNL that stated how Trump wants the constitution terminated because of the 2020 election. I do not see how that would work.

You’re Gonna Carry That Weight.
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#417653: Nov 27th 2023 at 5:10:20 AM

[up] Is that even a joke rather than reality these days....

BigBadShadow25 With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg. from Basement at the Alamo (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Desperate
With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg.
#417654: Nov 27th 2023 at 5:33:29 AM

No they spun it into an abortion joke.

But would that even be possible? Or is it another pipe dream that will just cause damage like Project 2025?

Edited by BigBadShadow25 on Nov 27th 2023 at 8:33:52 AM

You’re Gonna Carry That Weight.
doomrider7 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#417655: Nov 27th 2023 at 5:34:20 AM

@Gninja

This I can kind of agree with, but still view it as a case by case instance. The convo on capitalism bugs thought because it's treated as some kind of all-powerful mystical force that FORCES YOU to act a certain way. I feel like it removes agency and accountability from people to NOT be selfish, greedy, short-sighted assholes and passes the buck rather than look at possible social and societal issues or the culture of the country(in this case, the USA's whole "bootstrap" and "self-made" mentality).

Imca (Veteran)
#417656: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:09:06 AM

[up] Your read is compleatly off.

Its not that it makes people like that, Its that it puts people like that in power.

Edited by Imca on Nov 27th 2023 at 11:09:23 PM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#417657: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:20:55 AM

Historical materialism is one of Marx's ideas that hasn't aged very well.

That's one of the takes that's aged the *best*, though?

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#417658: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:23:18 AM

Yeah, uh, it's not "capitalism always", it's that the economic structure and function of a society defines the social structure and interactions within that society.

jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#417659: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:36:23 AM

I think capitalism can only be truly refuted by producing a better economic system that works on reality.

Otherwise, criticism of it, even when valid, will invoke the same response as when criticizing democracy: "It is the worst system except for all the others already tried."

The best system today will be to combine free-market capitalism with social benefits, like in the Nordic model.

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#417660: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:43:05 AM

[up] It's not the worst system though. When you look at the attempts to try out other systems, there's one pretty big thing in common between all of them. A bigger fish swooped in to destroy them as quickly as possible. The US and the Soviets both did this through the whole cold war and the US continued it after.

"The US abhors any system that might potentially threaten its control over South America" isn't actually a criticism of any of those systems, it's a criticism of the US.

And, I have to be honest, saying that all criticisms just boil down to "it's the worst system but it's better than the others" pretty quickly dovetails into the whole "how dare you want things to be better" thing and/or the "you say you want society to be better but you participate in it, interesting" thing. It's very easy to twist into an extremely bad faith argument.

It's also worth noting that a lot of criticism of capitalism comes with "we can improve it and make it better" and the big obstacle there is the people at the top don't want to improve it.

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 27th 2023 at 9:46:26 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#417661: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:46:07 AM

And it doesn't help that capitalism's flaws are compounded by the people who are already in power.

A system where it's difficult to climb the ladder is made worse by the people at the top pulling up said ladders. Or selling defective ladders. Or making it so that certain minorities get shorter ladders.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#417662: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:46:51 AM

Every system that empowers elites is difficult to change by virtue of having empowered elites who are very resistant to not being empowered and powerful people tend to be very passionate about using that power for that purpose.

Imca (Veteran)
#417663: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:48:28 AM

It also ignores that its inherently unsustaniable because the human population grows faster then the job market does, and that that is before automation.

Tying some ones existence to there ability too make economic value is non-sustaniable, this is no more an oppionion then "fossile fuels are unsustanable" its a fact.

Even if you think its the best system, it isn't able to last forever, much like fossil fuels are not able to last forever even though they hold advantages over renewables that the later cant equal on its own.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#417664: Nov 27th 2023 at 6:49:18 AM

Yep, there are already far too few ladders to go around, and we're running out of trees with which to make ladders.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#417665: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:15:38 AM

This is also why I don't put much stock in all the fear-mongering about low fertility. It just has so many . . . *undertones*.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#417666: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:18:33 AM

Deciding not to have children is a self-eliminating problem. In the end I'm not too worried about it. I am worried, however, about the political shifts that may occur as a result.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#417667: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:22:04 AM

...yeah, let's not get into that again because holy fuck it went bad last time.

However, in the short-middle term (defined as in, the next 30-40 years), immigration is a pretty good solution to the issue and the main reason the Republicans loathe immigration so much is because immigrants (who become citizens) are much more likely to either vote democrat or influence people around them to vote democrat. Obviously, this isn't consistent across the board, but even the inconsistencies can trip the Republicans up. Like how they discovered that messaging aimed at Florida Cubans tends to fail when aimed at Michigan Argentinians, for example.

And, right now, hand-wringing about what happens in 60/70/80 years is a huge waste of time if it means overlooking what's happening right now. Planning ahead is good...but not when it results in people getting told off for not planning the political affiliations of their children.

But that's all I'll say because I don't want a repeat of the last time.

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 27th 2023 at 10:26:37 AM

Imca (Veteran)
#417668: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:31:45 AM

Yea as some one who would like kids, but probaly isnt able to actualy have them... that topic is emotionally upsetting when it comes up, and never really goes any where.

I would like to second the request for please no.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#417669: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:31:50 AM

Besides, the real issue isn't fertility but young people just not being interested in starting families and having kids. Because having and raising kids is expensive even without taking into consideration a college education.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#417670: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:36:36 AM

Yep, it is a huge flaw in the system that people are effectively punished for having kids or wanting to start a family if they aren't wealthy.

The hospital bills for giving birth are absolutely ludicrous, it's nearly impossible to afford a house, it's extremely difficult to achieve long-term financial stability, there's school shootings all the fucking time, climate change, difficulty meeting new people as most of the traditional ways have been gradually evaporating, the war over education...there's a ton of reasons that having a kid looks like an incredibly awful idea. And not just for the people contemplating it, for the kid too.

You're basically gambling with the life of a whole-ass person and the odds are incredibly stacked against you in many ways.

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 27th 2023 at 10:37:55 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#417671: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:41:15 AM

And certain governments (not the USA's...yet) approach to encouraging young people to start families is counterproductive since they either try to shame them into doing so (Russia) or give pittance rewards that don't begin to cover the expenses (mainland China).

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#417672: Nov 27th 2023 at 7:50:19 AM

the real issue isn't fertility but young people just not being interested in starting families and having kids. Because having and raising kids is expensive even without taking into consideration a college education.

That’s actually two different issues.

There is a rising number of people not interested in starting families and having kids, but there’s also a growing number that are interested but are unable to do so in a reasonable manner due to how society has made it harder.

That’s due to how we’ve historically seen two environments where large families exist.

  • Environments where children act relatively quickly as a wealth generator rather than a wealth drain. This normally takes the form of child labour either out of the house (poor children having jobs) or within the house (agricultural families where children can contribute from a young age), at times the labour is not done when they are children but still with a quicker turnaround and less movement then we see today in developed countries (walking into a local okay paying job at 17 means you can be providing money into your household much sooner then if you’re in education until 25 and then move across the country to get a job that just covers costs).
  • Environments where wages enable a household to use non-wage labour for child rearing while maintains reasonable living standards. Now the most well-known form of such labour is you stereotypical stay at home mother, but such labour often also came in the form of locally based grandparents who had retired at the right age to assist with childcare for the next generation. The degradation of wages has meant not only that both parents typically need to work but that the supply of retiree labour has shrunk as grandparents either still work or retire later in life when they lack the same ability to support. This is also compounded like above by the fact that labour is much more distant then it used to be and people often end up geographically dispersed from the support they do have.

Both environments are on the trend down due to how society has changed and most developed nations are making up the different via immigration rather than looking to address the trends within their own existing populations.

Edited by Silasw on Nov 27th 2023 at 3:57:57 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#417673: Nov 27th 2023 at 8:01:14 AM

Having to move just to find a job also has a side effect of making it significantly more difficult to meet any potential partners. Our society seriously disincentivizes having children and the GOP answer is to basically make it impossible to avoid having kids and punish people for daring to have kids in the process.

It doesn't help that a lot of the pro-having-kids arguments are selfish as fuck and people with a functioning understanding that children are, in fact, whole entire people with autonomy and complete inner lives, aren't going to be receptive to "have kids so you have someone to take care of you in your old age" or "have kids because otherwise no one will visit you when you're old" because those arguments completely ignore the autonomy of the kids.

These factors all matter and trying to reduce it to politics or to blather on about "the tragedy of the commons" will do absolutely fuck all because a lot of people literally cannot afford to have children and a lot of people refuse to gamble with someone's life like that.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#417674: Nov 27th 2023 at 8:17:22 AM

It also doesn't help that the GOP's investment in pushing population growth is at odds with their ecological policy of letting people die. The GOP cares more about mass-production of humans then they do about sustaining a comfortable population. They treat birthrates the same way they treat capitalism: Mindless pursuit of endless growth.

Further not helping is that much of the reasoning for why they do this is about trying to win an arm-wrestling contest, rather than anything to do with maintaining a stable population. Whether that's in the form of white supremacists insisting that the ethnic minorities are going to fuck us out of existence, or the Christian evangelicals who believe that reproducing in droves is a Mission from God because of the phrase "Go forth and multiply".

Or the plain old heteronormatives who are mad because anyone not marrying an opposite-sex partner is a deviant and we can't have those in this neighborhood/family.

The pro-children argument often just feels like someone shouting, "My ideology requires you to have a dozen babies! Why aren't you doing your part to vanquish the blacks/latinos/Muslims!?" Rarely is anyone stressing out about birthrates for a legitimate, practical reason.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 27th 2023 at 8:18:37 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#417675: Nov 27th 2023 at 8:20:55 AM

[up] Plus most of the GOP and many of their voters going out of their way to refuse to see children as actual people and not possessions.

If you see a child as an actual person, that ideology is absolute repugnant.

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 27th 2023 at 11:21:26 AM


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