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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#352176: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:03:55 PM

Sure thing, but let's also not pretend that every Q cultist is a temporarily embarrassed awesome person who was unilaterally victimized into believing blood libel out of nowhere.

[up][up][up] The second quote was taken a bit out of context. It’s not saying that all Q-Annon supporters are wonderful people, or anything like that. It’s just trying to explain why seemingly reasonable people get caught up in conspiracy theories and cult-like behavior.

Awkward page topper.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 20th 2021 at 2:05:33 PM

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#352177: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:04:42 PM

But also, like, what they thought they were going to get out of the deal is still bad.

This is the part that gets me. Sure, they were misled by conmen, some to the point that they committed insurrection and died for it - but they were still hoping for bad things to happen. No one joined Q with the hope that it would lead to an end to police brutality or an advancement to civil rights or an end to climate change or world hunger. They believed it was For The Children, but they wanted to rescue The Children from (((Democrats))). By saying "I feel bad for the ones who were, at the very least, sincere in their beliefs", we risk minimizing the fact that that means they were sincere about antisemitism, white supremacy, and insurrection. It's not anything to praise or respect people for.

It's been fun.
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#352178: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:12:50 PM

Yeah, they wouldn’t have bought into all that bullshit if they weren’t already pieces of shit with toxic beliefs whose end game is hate and fear. I don’t feel sorry for them one bit.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#352179: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:16:57 PM

I'd probably say this: In their current state, they're evil people who I don't have a lot of sympathy for. There is, however, some kind of sad or tragic story that made them the way they are, but that doesn't mean the product of their experience wasn't an evil creature.

To be fair, the "In their current state" part is important. I would prefer they see the error in their ways if that's possible, but if they don't then I don't really care.

Leviticus 19:34
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#352180: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:18:54 PM

I do.

But then humanity is known for being flawed and complicated.

Not that I don't agree that the vast majority of Qultists did willingly buy into the bullshit, mind you. It's just that Qanon also acts a lot like a sexual predator and very much does like to target the indecisive and naive.

And "they were already pieces of shit" in that case is a bit too much like "they was asking for it" for my taste.

Edited by Pendrake on Jan 20th 2021 at 11:20:40 AM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#352181: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:20:43 PM

The abusive relationship analogy doesn't quite work since as far as I know most of the victims stuck in such relationships didn't abuse other people.

Qanon MAGA-hat cultists otoh are hurting other people.

[up]You're making excuses for these people again. Don't.

Edited by M84 on Jan 21st 2021 at 3:21:26 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#352182: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:23:18 PM

And "they were already pieces of shit" in that case is a bit too much like "they was asking for it" for my taste.

I really don't understand how the two are alike.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#352183: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:25:07 PM

[up]Agreed, I really think we should not be trying to make an equivalence between Qanon cultists and victims of sexual assault and rape.

Edited by M84 on Jan 21st 2021 at 3:25:41 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#352184: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:28:22 PM

I'm playing devil's advocate, and I happen to have experience in the case of the latter.

And I'm not excusing them. I'm not even asking for anyone to forgive them. Just to understand, and not just go "They suck, have always sucked, and will always suck, so we've always been better than them."

That's not an argument. That's justification for hate, and a path to Knight Templar and He Who Fights Monsters thinking.

I suppose I'll posit this: Would you support a rehabilitation/deprogramming charity for them if one was created?

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#352185: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:29:27 PM

[up]No, you were making a crass equivalence between people here expressing a lack of sympathy for hateful cultists and people who make excuses for rapists.

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#352186: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:30:23 PM

[up][up][up][up] The problem is that these types of beliefs are shared by a not insignificant percentage of the population, that we can’t afford to ignore any longer.

While this will undoubtedly cause some people to dig their heels in harder, there will still be a large amount of people who start to realize that they’ve been had, and we need to jump on that. Getting people to deal with reality, instead of living in conspiracy-land, is an essential first step.

So if you have anyone in your life that was taken in by the Trump-Cult, and is starting to doubt, please try to be understanding and compassionate. It’s really hard, and I know the natural instinct is to laugh, but it’s the last thing they need right now.

Edited by megaeliz on Jan 20th 2021 at 2:38:50 PM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#352187: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:31:43 PM

Don't become too fond of being The Devil's Advocate. The Devil rarely pays his attorneys very well.

Leviticus 19:34
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#352188: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:32:50 PM

No, I was actually equating to VICTIMS of Rape.

Which my immediate family has a few of. And I've directly seen how that changed them, and the excuses they tell themselves or others for what happened. I'll never excuse or forgive some of the stuff that happened, but I do strive to recognize and understand what led to it.

It's disturbingly similar.

Edited by Pendrake on Jan 20th 2021 at 11:35:42 AM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#352189: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:34:22 PM

[up]No you weren't. You were comparing the thing a poster said to something rapists say to justify their crimes.

You're basically saying people here who have No Sympathy for Qanon cultists are as bad as rapists.

Edited by M84 on Jan 21st 2021 at 3:35:10 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#352190: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:35:50 PM

From a purely pragmatic standpoint something needs to be done with these people and obviously it would be a net benefit for the world and themselves for any people who believed in it to face reality and start doing something meaningful and productive with their lives. Anyone who wants to help them do that is doing the world a favor.

That being said, my sympathy for Qultists is pretty much zero. Conned or not, they were still ok with white supremacy, police brutality, and all manner of other heinous things as long as it made them feel emotionally validated and that the world made sense. I can't really view anyone who does that as some poor victim to be sympathized with or pitied. They made their bed and now they can sleep in it.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 20th 2021 at 4:36:31 PM

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#352191: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:36:30 PM

It is important to note the difference between the ones who were led on by drinking the Kool-Aid and the ones peddling the Kool-Aid in the first place. But the biggest important difference there is that the peddlers aren't the ones having breakdowns or getting arrested by the FBI - they're the ones escaping with a sheaf of notes entitled "Shit The American People Will Buy", and already figuring out how to dress up their next attempt at the con, while their patsies are, as always, left holding the bag. It's just that in this case, what the patsies thought they were getting was a government where God-King Donald Trump publicly executes all the Democrats and Jews in Washington, and what they got instead was insurrection charges.

It's a tragedy, sure, but in the classical sense where a tragedy is an entirely avoidable end result of several people making avoidable mistakes.

Edited by RedSavant on Jan 20th 2021 at 2:37:08 PM

It's been fun.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#352192: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:37:43 PM

Heck, note how that one woman having a breakdown in that vid posted by Dan said something about "our country".

Yeah, she's still all-in on white nationalist crap.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#352193: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:39:33 PM

In fact, that's the problem. We already have reports that white supremacist groups are trying to recruit qultists into their ranks.

So they may get out of the new delusion into an older and still very dangerous delusion and only really get worse.

Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#352194: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:40:04 PM

That was not my intent.

But I will contend that ex-Qultists down the road, regardless of whether they show remorse for what they've done, will constantly be villified, even if they end up as political activists again the alt-right.

As I've said previously, I do suck at choosing my words. and I only have my own life experience to draw from.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#352195: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:40:21 PM

Ultimately, you can't help change people unless they want to change.

And most of these people do not want to change.

[up]Intent doesn't really matter. The point is, that's what you did. You've already made a really bad comparison on this thread by saying I was as bad as insurrectionists.

Edited by M84 on Jan 21st 2021 at 3:42:21 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#352196: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:42:21 PM

[up] It’s still worth trying, if you know someone that is legitimately starting to question and doubt.

Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#352197: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:42:32 PM

[up][up]As far as we know, anyways.

Edited by Pendrake on Jan 20th 2021 at 11:43:26 AM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#352198: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:42:53 PM

[up][up]As I've pointed out though, most aren't. Like I said, that one woman in the vid sure isn't.

Edited by M84 on Jan 21st 2021 at 3:43:03 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#352199: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:44:16 PM

@Draghinazzo summed up my feelings on the matter way better than I could.

I suppose I'll posit this: Would you support a rehabilitation/deprogramming charity for them if one was created?

I guess it depends on what you mean by support? If it means generally just thinking it's a good thing, yes. I think people who try to persuade or deprogram these people are doing important/meaningful work. If you're asking whether I'll personally donate or volunteer myself, no. Some days it's just soul-sucking/draining just interacting with or reading the words of those people. I really have no desire to engage any further.

Edited by nova92 on Jan 20th 2021 at 11:45:09 AM

Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#352200: Jan 20th 2021 at 11:44:29 PM

Look, M, I'll admit I've just skimmed this convo, but maybe cool it a tad?


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