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DrunkenNordmann from Exile
May 15th 2019 at 7:56:28 AM

[up][up] The US basically completely forgot what did and didn't work during de-Nazification.

When Germany was occupied, they didn't just fire everyone who might be linked to the Nazi party - mostly because a lot of jobs had required you to join the party - but instead introduced a tiered system, with the people at the top going to the gallows at Nuremberg.

In Iraq they simply threw nuance out of the window.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on May 15th 2019 at 4:56:42 PM

"Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying."
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
May 15th 2019 at 8:04:24 AM

There was never any chance Iraq was going to be contained. Not after having been invaded, at least.

I'm fairly sure that if the Iraqi military was working with the US government, that wouldn't be the case.

I have the feel it was always overextending US resources by far and was for fake reasons bur for the majority, they were Punch Clock Villains and plenty of (suppressed but now available) material says they were all prepared to show up for work. They just needed someone to sign the surrender agreement and be placed as the puppet ruler.

Iraq wasn't one mistake but a compounded rolling snowball of them.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 15th 2019 at 8:05:51 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
May 15th 2019 at 8:16:02 AM

[up] Other than the fact that the Iraqi military somehow ending up on the US side may as well be a fantasy novel, even with their help it never would have worked. It would have worked a little better, but still nowhere near good.

Iraq was too dysfunctional and the power vacuum after Saddam too total for anything good to happen. Invading them destroyed any chance we had for a good resolution. Even if we had used their military as a stopgap to hold back the immediate chaos it wouldn’t have been able to do anything for the underlying issues and may have just exacerabated them in the long term or ended up just where we ended up.

The pooch was screwed in Iraq the second our tanks crossed the border.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 15th 2019 at 8:17:38 AM

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
May 15th 2019 at 8:20:14 AM

Ally?

No, but the whole thing became an example of Order Versus Chaos from the beginning. If you don't have leadership then no one can surrender their forces. If you don't have a structure for dealing with people, they will go wild.

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
May 15th 2019 at 8:32:04 AM

" The US basically completely forgot what did and didn't work during de-Nazification."

More like deliberately deleted it from the collective military memory. Vietnam scared the brass from anything that smelled remotely of nation-building, so all strategies basically stopped at when the tanks stopped rolling and fobbed anything afterwards to the State Department.

And all the previous posts here showed what happened then.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile
May 15th 2019 at 8:37:17 AM

[up] If you're not prepared to properly fix something, than maybe don't break it in the first place?

"Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying."
May 15th 2019 at 8:39:17 AM

But what if John Bolton really wants to break it?

unknowing "GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!" from somewhere..
"GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!"
May 15th 2019 at 8:47:06 AM

[up]That and in general germany is a little bit to different fron iraq and other cases, the monstrosities of hitler and is crony were to damn much to tolerate for germany itself and is not like germany was hyper awfull so there is a sense of "there is other ways".

with many dictators often the mantain a semblance of order, selfish orde rand clearly depent of said leader but order none at the end, this make dictatorship look appeling, specially if you leave afterwar.

"There is only one truth in this life and that is DESPAIR!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
May 15th 2019 at 8:47:34 AM

[up][up] Force him to live in the country he broke.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on May 15th 2019 at 5:47:42 PM

"Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying."
May 15th 2019 at 8:51:59 AM

Bolton? He really, really wants to break it. The man is a lunatic: he explicitly shuns any information that contradicts his worldview.

Edited by Oruka on May 15th 2019 at 9:02:21 AM

May 15th 2019 at 8:54:59 AM

Germany is very different from Iraq. And it would be more accurate to say we tried to apply the lessons we learned in Vietnam to Iraq, but even those two were far too different.

Like I said, the hand was dealt the second we crossed the border in 2003. There was no way to escape the consequences of that action and of the structural dysfunction within Iraq.

May 15th 2019 at 9:03:16 AM

we tried to apply the lessons we learned in Vietnam to Iraq

How?

TobiasDrake Always watching, never seen from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Always watching, never seen
May 15th 2019 at 9:25:04 AM

Maine's citizens have passed legislation that puts the electoral college to the winner of the national popular vote.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/443715-maine-senate-passes-bill-that-would-give-electoral-college-votes-to

Awesome. That's another 4 EVs to the Interstate Compact.

I think that puts us at 193? Somewhere around that. The Compact doesn't go into effect until 270 to avoid handcuffing its member states without having enough votes to actually win.

Once we hit that number, though, that's it. 270 votes tied to the Compact, Compact goes into effect, and the electoral college functionally does not exist anymore.

The greatest trick prejudice ever pulled was to convince the world it did not exist.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
May 15th 2019 at 9:25:25 AM

Germany is very different from Iraq

I don't see how "don't fire literally everyone with a party membership card" is only applicable to Germany, though.

"Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying."
May 15th 2019 at 9:27:47 AM

[up][up][up] Enough with the sealioning, please. It’s common knowledge that the counterinsurgency tactics we used in Iraq and Afghanistan were informed by our experiences in Vietnam and Africa.

[up] Sure, the basic principles are similar, but that doesn’t exactly say much. The basic principle of war is kill the enemy but you wouldn’t say that WW 1 and the Gulf War are very similar.

Iraq has a whole host of structural and religious issues that Germany didn’t. Germany had a very different ideology that needed to be removed, a much different position vs. its enemy, the list goes on.

Not firing party members is a good idea, but the structural issues in Iraq ran so deep it probably wouldn’t have even mattered.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 15th 2019 at 9:31:03 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
May 15th 2019 at 9:35:18 AM

The comparison for Iraq isn’t Germany, it’s Bosnia and the rest of former Yugoslavia.

Firing the entire Iraq military (without taking their guns away) did a ton of damage. Iraq was always going to be bad because of Saddam and the nature of the state, but we made it worse with a lot of blindingly stupid mistakes and a total lack of long-term planning.

The occupation was originally envisioned to last months, when we know from the past that one needs to measure nation building in decades.

Edited by Silasw on May 15th 2019 at 4:35:51 PM

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
May 15th 2019 at 9:36:57 AM

How come Former Yugoslavia haven't been turned to complete shit?

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Relationship Status: It's complicated
May 15th 2019 at 10:06:32 AM

Decades of successful global intervention.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Grafite Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
May 15th 2019 at 10:09:13 AM

[up][up] They successfully became more integrated with the European markets through capitalist reforms.

Life is unfair...
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
May 15th 2019 at 10:10:08 AM

[up][up][up][up] I used Germany as a comparison because like in Germany, a lot of people were technically members of Iraq's ruling political party.

Turns out blanket-firing everyone without checking why they're even in the party is not a smart idea.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on May 15th 2019 at 7:10:17 PM

"Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying."
unknowing "GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!" from somewhere..
"GREAT AND GLORIOUS DESAPAIR!"
May 15th 2019 at 10:15:09 AM

[up]In the end that is what it takes.

Sometimes you need a dick slaping you in the face yo get why your chose is awfull.

"There is only one truth in this life and that is DESPAIR!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Relationship Status: It's complicated
May 15th 2019 at 10:19:08 AM

No Sympathy for them, though if they vote Democrat/third party/stay home it does some good.

But I am past feeling pity for Trump voters and/or Republicans at this point.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Draghinazzo My love, has dressed me like a clown Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
My love, has dressed me like a clown
May 15th 2019 at 10:22:45 AM

To me, former Trump voters staying home was the most I expected. Any of them voting D is a bonus.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. ...not really though.
Reflextion Cheerful Misanthrope from Nowhere Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Cheerful Misanthrope
May 15th 2019 at 10:38:58 AM

[up]x4 The knowledge that the people who voted for Trump are suffering for it brings a smile to my face.

It's assholes all the way down. —CharlesPhipps

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