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Discussion about renaming: Nakama

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CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#101: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:18:53 PM

Wait, there's been a pre-existing English term for exactly this that specifically means this rather than something else?

This is a pretty serious argument in favour of a switch to that name.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Daremo Misanthrope Supreme from Parts Unknown Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
#102: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:19:33 PM

2 points here:

First, for Addy and Kris(should quote, but... tired...) I'm not sure I entirely buy that claim. The trope is a bit more idealised and intense that the common usage of the word, but it can be used that way in Japanese as pointed out in Three By Three Eyes. That's like saying Band of Brothers is wrong because every bar junket doesn't kick off with, "We few, we happy few...". Hell, who uses Comrade like that, or Coterie at all?

Second, either because of the high temperature, or my lack of sleep, or my general illness, I find it difficult to work up the needed energy to take up my usual defender of the status quo mantle. I'll just say give it 3 business days before taking action, so every has a chance to see it, and voice their opinion.

Actually I'll say a third thing, more general than just this topic. I like having names in Japanese, as well as French, Latin, Chinese pinyin, Russian and others. There's a great big world out there and I don't see why we need to persist in this isolationist attitude toward tropes names in languages other than English. Tropes are universal. They can originate in many cultures or genres, and we don't need to tart them up in English dress for them to be comprehensible. The important part is that the example fits the trope as is the case here. Where that name comes from is irrelevant.

Edit: Also, why does the single prop say, "Cut the examples"?

edited 9th Jul '11 1:21:20 PM by Daremo

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#103: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:24:27 PM

Second, either because of the high temperature, or my lack of sleep, or my general illness, I find it difficult to work up the needed energy to take up my usual defender of the status quo mantle. I'll just say give it 3 business days before taking action, so every has a chance to see it, and voice their opinion.

It's not like we're rushing through this, you know?

Actually I'll say a third thing, more general than just this topic. I like having names in Japanese, as well as French, Latin, Chinese pinyin, Russian and others. There's a great big world out there and I don't see why we need to persist in this isolationist attitude toward tropes names in languages other than English. Tropes are universal. They can originate in many cultures or genres, and we don't need to tart them up in English dress for them to be comprehensible. The important part is that the example fits the trope as is the case here. Where that name comes from is irrelevant.

Yes, a name's origin is irrelevant, but a name's clarity is incredibly relevant. It's even the first thing that should be taken into account while choosing a name.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#104: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:29:51 PM

Let me put it this way.

Using "nakama" to mean what we're using it for on the wiki is like using "futon" to mean "chair that folds out to a bed" when it actually means "mat you sleep on the floor with". Yeah, okay, English has done that before. But if we're using a Japanese term that most people wouldn't know what it means, and even Japanese people would misunderstand it, that's a problem. If it had widespread English use, then fine, but if it's inaccurate and nobody uses it the way we mean outside some poorly-done fansubs, we probably shouldn't encourage using it wrong.

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#105: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:35:31 PM

Ask a random person in the street what a Nakama is. You'll get a blank stare. Ask a Japanese what a Nakama is and you'll get a definition that isn't used on this site. That means it fails in comprehensibility. The name itself is meaningless, as its dictionary definition isn't that of the trope.

Misuse isn't the only reason to rename a trope, even if is the primary one.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#106: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:35:40 PM

Ladies and gentlemen. I would like to express my pride and gratitude for being able to take part in this joyous occasion where at last the community wakes from its slumber, pulling itself together to stand up once again after laying asleep in a pool of ignoran——

Anyway, I'm with the "well, it's not that hot, but if 'framily''s what they're calling it, go ahead" crowd.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
TheJackal Lurker from the UK Since: Dec, 2009
Lurker
#107: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:38:08 PM

Yeah, I'm not too keen on Framily either but I won't be too disappointed if this is renamed to it because it has two things on its side: it's a pre-existing term and it's still a much better name than Nakama is.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#108: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:44:00 PM

I think we should see if we can get a better name, though.

But if we don't, I'm all for Framily.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#109: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:45:20 PM

Well, admittedly it's a slang, not exactly restrictive. Not exactly an established pre-existing term or anywhere near official quality.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Nyarly Das kann doch nicht sein! from Saksa Since: Feb, 2012
Das kann doch nicht sein!
#110: Jul 9th 2011 at 1:54:34 PM

I like having names in Japanese, as well as French, Latin, Chinese pinyin, Russian and others. There's a great big world out there and I don't see why we need to persist in this isolationist attitude toward tropes names in languages other than English.
While I have to agree with that, one shouldn't forget that the wiki is in English. Therefore, English trope names have generally a higher priority. Just as the German version of the wiki has mostly German trope titles.

Sure, I'm all for preserving a trope name in a foreign language, when it's a pre-existing term (as in Tsundere). However, that's ostensibly not the case here. Therefore there is no reason to preserve "Nakama".

People aren't as awful as the internet makes them out to be.
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#111: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:16:22 PM

Honestly, Framily sounds kinda corny, but if it ends up winning a crowner for new names (which looks like it'll happen by this crowner's current tally) then that's fine and dandy for the trope.

RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#112: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:17:30 PM

... Please, if/when this is renamed, can we do our best to avoid Framily? Considering that the R key is right above the F in the Qwerty keyboard...

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
KrisMahai Hm? Since: Jan, 2013
Hm?
#113: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:26:48 PM

And technically, since Eddie commented that it's the name of a movie, we really shouldn't be using it for a trope name. We should save that page for the movie.

Also, as someone else mentioned, Framily doesn't really seem strong enough to me.

edited 9th Jul '11 2:27:05 PM by KrisMahai

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
TheManInBlack Since: Oct, 2009
#114: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:32:03 PM

Good, now give Cyano back its name its name too. We need clean this site up.

edited 9th Jul '11 2:35:23 PM by TheManInBlack

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#115: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:32:40 PM

Oh for God's sake.... JUST USE FAMILY OF FRIENDS! Is that hard to come up with?!

[up] What?

edited 9th Jul '11 2:33:17 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#116: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:32:41 PM

[up][up][up] Irrelevant - the film gets the correct namespace.

edited 9th Jul '11 2:32:52 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#117: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:49:54 PM

Well, I like Framily. I'll vote for it, when the time comes. People who don't like it should put up their suggestions.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#118: Jul 9th 2011 at 2:54:01 PM

This trope is NOT corny though it's like trying to bash a trope with it's name... People will not want to use it, or as a wick, let alone link it somewhere else (with the exception of laughing at it)

edited 9th Jul '11 2:55:23 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
MilosStefanovic Decemberist from White City, Ruritania Since: Oct, 2010
Decemberist
#119: Jul 9th 2011 at 3:05:20 PM

Hmmm... how about Bonded By Friendship? Friendship Cast In Iron?

edited 9th Jul '11 3:05:40 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#120: Jul 9th 2011 at 3:05:49 PM

Well, besides the fact that Framily is a work, there's also the issue that it's only one letter away from "Family", which could be a problem.

As for Fellowship, it has the advantage over Camaraderie that it still works in sentences like "Hero and his X set off on their quest".

Bottom line, though, this rename is long overdue, and I'll probably support any replacement that can gather some momentum.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#121: Jul 9th 2011 at 3:16:58 PM

Again, Framily being a work is irrelevant as that would get the Film namespace. Main would be for the trope, that's what namespaces are for.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#122: Jul 9th 2011 at 3:21:50 PM

I've been cruising through the google list for 'framily.' Dude, it is used everywhere! No idea how we missed this before now.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#123: Jul 9th 2011 at 3:25:26 PM

Damn. It is. It's got nearly a quarter of million hits, including the Mac Millan Dictionary site listing for it, and Wictionary.

Earliest known written usage:

Judy K. Hadokowitz, 56, died Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2003, at her home. ...

Survivors: Children, Michelle Hadokowitz and Jay Hadokowitz; grandson, Justin Hadokowitz, all of Hurst; sister, Joan Harvey of Grand Prairie; brother and sister-in-law, Richard Hadokowitz and his wife, Janice, of Minneapolis, Minn.; numerous nieces, nephews and cousins; and loving group of friends known to her as "framily." —"Obituaries," Fort Worth Star Telegram, November 20, 2003

edited 9th Jul '11 3:27:37 PM by Madrugada

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#124: Jul 9th 2011 at 3:32:38 PM

I absolutely don't object to Framily; just pointing out that it's an easier typo than some of the other suggestions.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#125: Jul 9th 2011 at 3:36:59 PM

Look at that 7 to 1 ratio on the rename crowner. I'm really wondering how we got ... what was it, 3:1 the other way, last time? I'm really starting to suspect that we got ballot-box stuffed last time, and I missed it.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

AlternativeTitles: Nakama
11th Jul '11 8:18:19 PM

Crown Description:

Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.

Total posts: 1,901
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