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Discussion about renaming: Nakama

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juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#301: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:54:13 PM

I understand that it's important not to cater to a certain majority, but it's also important to not alienate the anime fans either.

How is it particualarly alienating to rename a trope? You still get the same "privileges" that any and all fandom have on the wiki. We're just taking one useless reference away. Same way we took Biggus Dickus away from the British TV comedy fans.

Was that alienating? I don't think so. At least, I hope not.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#302: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:54:37 PM

I understand that it's important not to cater to a certain majority, but it's also important to not alienate the anime fans either.

You know what the real majority on this site is?

English speakers.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
DoctorThunder Since: Sep, 2010
#303: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:56:21 PM

Exactly, Cygan. We should be naming the tropes in ways which are as easy to understand at a glance for everyday English-speakers as possible. There's no reason to have a bunch of relatively-obscure terms which only part of the site's readers will get if we can help it.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:56:29 PM by DoctorThunder

TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#304: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:57:35 PM

We wouldn't need a concerted rename effort. Just changing it when it comes up has worked before, and it'll work for this, even if there'll be a mix for a while. (Well, forever really, but there should be a noticeable lean to whatever we go with in a few months.) Wiki Magic is a wonderful thing.

Actually, isn't the code set up to change redirects' appearance now? If so, the old ones will stick around longer, but other than in alphabetized lists, which should go quickly, no one but editors will notice.

Hmm... Camaraderie kind of runs into the same linguistic problems, though, being a bit vaguer than what we're going for... maybe True Camaraderie?

Just, please, not some ridiculous portmanteau. Please, Eddie. Please.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:58:35 PM by TwinBird

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#305: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:58:00 PM

Pretty much as Doctor Thunder said.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
LosingStreak *sigh* Since: Oct, 2010
*sigh*
#306: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:58:04 PM

@Shota: The reason that this particular entry is being considered for renaming is that TV Tropes's definition of the trope does not match up with the actual Japanese usage of the term. Please read up on the entire discussion before dragging in the slippery slope fallacy.

Not to mention that it isn't even a trope exclusive to anime/manga! So you can't use that argument either.

animenutcase Since: Jan, 2001
#307: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:58:54 PM

[up]302. And? English is a Germanic language. A good number of our words came from other languages. Nakama may not be in common usage, and maybe it is being used incorrectly. That doesn't mean the term needs to be shunned and purged from this wiki.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:59:34 PM by animenutcase

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#308: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:59:39 PM

Um, yes it does. Why would we want to keep a title that doesn't even work properly as a title?

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
MilosStefanovic Decemberist from White City, Ruritania Since: Oct, 2010
Decemberist
#309: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:00:33 PM

[up][up]Yes, it is. We need to make the wiki as accessible as possible.

edited 9th Jul '11 8:00:48 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
Gaunt88 from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#310: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:01:45 PM

@ animenutcase: Its not being "shunned and purged", it's being shuffled back to a redirect. If the trope is renamed, you can bet there'll still be paragrahs mentioning/explaining the old name in the main text.

edited 9th Jul '11 8:02:16 PM by Gaunt88

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#311: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:02:17 PM

Pouring through the various suggestions for renames, since I've resigned my objections to a rename...

"Framily" is something that I hadn't heard of before today, nobody I've spoken to has heard of before today, and I think runs into some of the same problems as Nakama (the ones not related to "means something else in the original language"). To me, replacing "Nakama" with "Framily" would be taking a problem and replacing it with an equally bad problem.

I would, in theory, like the idea of "Unshakable Camaraderie" - it is an easy to remember noun phrase involving words that have comfortably entered English. However, when a good number of people have repeatedly misspelled both halves of the phrase, I have to figure that something easier would work better.

"Family Of Friends" is probably the best one I can think of, as it's succinct, gets the idea across, and I think is less prone to a spelling error.

To offer my own, I would suggest "Friends Beyond Measure," which I think also gets the idea across.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
DoctorThunder Since: Sep, 2010
#312: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:03:01 PM

No one is saying the word should be made taboo. All we're saying is that a word which is in a totally different language than most of the rest of the site doesn't make for an ideal trope title.

"Family Of Friends"

I like that one a lot.

edited 9th Jul '11 8:03:54 PM by DoctorThunder

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#313: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:03:47 PM

302. And? English is a Germanic language. A good number of our words came from other languages. Nakama may not be in common usage, and maybe it is being used incorrectly. That doesn't mean the term needs to be shunned and purged from this wiki.

If it is not in common usage, then yes it does need to be purged, as the majority of the users on the site will not understand what it means.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#314: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:05:29 PM

I am an anime fan (major one at that) and I am all for renaming Unlike tropes that dont actually translate well into english without being 15+ words like Tsundere or Deus ex Machina this one has little use inside and outside of anime and manga.

This can be easily we have come up with 50 different ones in this thread.

(I support Unshakeable Fellowship btw.)

edited 9th Jul '11 8:08:03 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#315: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:06:08 PM

I rather like Friends Beyond Measure.

Just not Frenemy or Famigo or whatever

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#316: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:07:35 PM

It's Friendmigos for you. And do not push it down, please.

(Bocaj was just joking, don't worry)

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#317: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:09:01 PM

I actually really like Framily, especially if it means pretty much exactly what we would use it to mean. If there ends up being enough support to rename this trope, I would certainly vote for it.

Using English terms that only fit the trope if stretched from their commonly used definitions is really no better than using Nakama.

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OMalley This I'll defend. from Massachusetts Since: May, 2009
This I'll defend.
#318: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:10:11 PM

We really oughta rename this one. I'm a big anime fan, but the amount of Japanese terms on this site that could be better described in English is truly ridiculous. I'm partial to "Family of Friends".

A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
DoctorThunder Since: Sep, 2010
#319: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:10:41 PM

Really, any of the names pitched in the last few posts would work just fine. They all do a good job of capturing the overall feel of the trope without being too clunky or obtuse of terms. Except for Framily, I mean.

Using English terms that only fit the trope if stretched from their commonly used definitions is really no better than using Nakama.

Actually, it's still way better, because if I'm not an anime fan, I don't have to look up the meaning of "Unshakable Fellowship" or the like to know what the article is going to be about.

edited 9th Jul '11 8:11:07 PM by DoctorThunder

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#320: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:10:57 PM

316: How'd you figure it out?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#321: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:11:21 PM

The new title crowner will be epic in size...

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#322: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:11:47 PM

"Friends Beyond Measure" is one I could get behind.

I can honestly say I like a lot of these suggestions and if we do get to a rename crowner I'll probably vote up for more than half of them.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#323: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:11:54 PM

Actually, it's still way better, because if I'm not an anime fan, I don't have to look up the meaning of "Unshakable Fellowship" or the like to know what the article is going to be about.

It's sort of better, but it's not something that we should be looking forward as a possibility.

^^^The eyebrows gave you away.

edited 9th Jul '11 8:13:30 PM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Leaper Since: May, 2009
#324: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:14:33 PM

Wow, 300+ posts in just a day? Nakamas really are Serious Business, aren't they? :D

Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#325: Jul 9th 2011 at 8:14:54 PM

Friends Beyond Measure

That one works really well, I could get behind that as a rename it works and it's simple and clear.

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com

AlternativeTitles: Nakama
11th Jul '11 8:18:19 PM

Crown Description:

Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.

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