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Discussion about renaming: Nakama

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CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#276: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:39:12 PM

Nakama (noun) eng:

  1. fellow
  2. companion
  3. company
  4. associate
  5. buddy
  6. group
  7. partner
  8. comrade
  9. circle of friends
  10. bedfellow
  11. footman

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
animenutcase Since: Jan, 2001
#277: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:39:17 PM

To be perfectly honest, that's part of the reason I'm against a rename. We've been using Nakama for so long. It's on so many pages that going back and changing them all would be a huge hassle.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#278: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:40:38 PM

Yes, but just because they're a majority doesn't mean that we should cater to them. Above all, we should cater to the community as a whole, rather than to a Vocal Minority.

^That's why we'll keep it as a redirect.

^^ Thanks.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:41:32 PM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
KrisMahai Hm? Since: Jan, 2013
Hm?
#279: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:41:41 PM

Still, Grandfather Clause is not a valid reason for not renaming something, nor is the "shitstorm" the renaming might cause.

I added a rough pro and con section, but it could use some fleshing out.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#280: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:42:10 PM

Ya, renaming all the tropes on the page would take to be honest weeks if not months.

As too the point of renaming all the Japanese named tropes some really are Japanese cultural tropes that people have stuck western examples that just happen to fit into.

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
DoctorThunder Since: Sep, 2010
#281: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:42:17 PM

The site isn't called "AnimeTropes". Catering to one group above the rest doesn't seem right. In other words, exactly what Juancarlos said.

joeyjojojuniorshabadoo Since: Nov, 2010
#282: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:42:28 PM

279: Well now I feel silly for sending that lengthy holler instead of just doing it myself.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:42:47 PM by joeyjojojuniorshabadoo

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#283: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:43:24 PM

To be perfectly honest, that's part of the reason I'm against a rename. We've been using Nakama for so long. It's on so many pages that going back and changing them all would be a huge hassle.

"It's too much work" is not a reasonable excuse for leaving it. If we use the new term correctly enough, the old 'nakama' inbounds will likely be changed over to the new term by editors anyway.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
KrisMahai Hm? Since: Jan, 2013
Hm?
#284: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:43:39 PM

^^ Ah, sorry. Were we planning on a mod doing it? I didn't realize.

^ Agreed, "it'll be a lot of work" is never a valid reason not to rename something.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:44:24 PM by KrisMahai

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
Shota Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
#286: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:43:51 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Yes it's not called 'Anime Tropes'. However, 'Anime and Manga' is a hugely influencial section of the site and I see anime tropes extend to even Western media all the time on here!

edited 9th Jul '11 7:44:19 PM by Shota

joeyjojojuniorshabadoo Since: Nov, 2010
#287: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:45:11 PM

As for why we're not renaming all the Japanese-named tropes, there is at least one other being discussed right now. But "nakama" is arguably the most egregious instance of using a Japanese word for a universal concept on the site, and it's recently been brought up that it's not as clear as we once thought even in Japanese.

MilosStefanovic Decemberist from White City, Ruritania Since: Oct, 2010
Decemberist
#288: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:45:37 PM

[up][up]Well, yes, but I would like to avoid making the site a tyrranny by majority. There's a decent number of tropers with no interest in anime whatsoever.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:45:49 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
DoctorThunder Since: Sep, 2010
#289: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:45:48 PM

But it's just one section, no matter how large.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#290: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:47:11 PM

I think that some Japanese words work in a case by case basis, but that's something for another thread entirely.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
MilosStefanovic Decemberist from White City, Ruritania Since: Oct, 2010
Decemberist
#291: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:48:23 PM

[up]Agreed with that. IMO, the "-dere" family is one of the acceptable examples.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#292: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:49:08 PM

tyrranny by majority, is a bit of rhetorical logic. Just because we respect a majority doesn't mean we are punishing a minority either.

Most Common Super Power started as a comic trope, but we don't see it being renamed to Powers Equa L Breast Size even though Most Common Super Power is not clear in the least. Why respect.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:49:37 PM by Vyctorian

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
Shota Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
#293: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:49:39 PM

[up][up]Why? Because all those words are actually being used properly on this site by what they mean?

edited 9th Jul '11 7:49:56 PM by Shota

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#294: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:49:56 PM

Yes it's not called 'Anime Tropes'. However, 'Anime and Manga' is a hugely influencial section of the site and I see anime tropes extend to even Western media all the time on here!

There are very few anime-exclusive Tropes.

There are many Tropes that are often used by anime, but do not make the mistake of thinking of them as Anime Tropes.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:51:49 PM by CyganAngel

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
Nunyuh Since: Dec, 1969
#295: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:50:12 PM

I'm not sure I understand - if we're not interested in making the site a tyranny by majority, why is this a majority-rules poll?

Whatever you may think of the anime/manga community, it's clearly not both 1) in the majority and 2) willing to vote on proposals as a single-interest bloc.

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#296: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:50:17 PM

Yup, there are many tropes which deservedly have a strong anime association, even though they appear in western works. This is not such a trope; this is Older Than Dirt.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
animenutcase Since: Jan, 2001
#297: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:50:48 PM

I understand that it's important not to cater to a certain majority, but it's also important to not alienate the anime fans either.

I should also probably verify: Grandfather Clause aside, I am often very, very resistant to change. Yes, even to trope name changes. I understand that I'm just one person, but I don't think the rename should be brought up on tropes that have had their names for so long.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:54:17 PM by animenutcase

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#298: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:51:02 PM

Yes, except that they're not really a majority. They're an outspoken majority. And not all anime/manga fans are in favor of Nakama.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
MilosStefanovic Decemberist from White City, Ruritania Since: Oct, 2010
Decemberist
#299: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:51:13 PM

@Shota: Because of the lack of a remotely close English word.

@Vyctorian: That one should also be renamed, but it's not the subject of this thread.

Re: Tyranny of Majority - Yes, anime fans do present a considerable percent of TV Tropes' community, but it's not a good idea to use fandom terms that non-anime fans wouldn't be familiar with. Using a word in English would be more convenient for them, and it's also not a problem for anime fans.

edited 9th Jul '11 7:55:40 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#300: Jul 9th 2011 at 7:53:44 PM

Most Common Super Power started as a comic trope, but we don't see it being renamed to Powers Equa L Breast Size even though Most Common Super Power is not clear in the least. Why respect.

Then offer it up for a rename. Like we did here.

Why? Because all those words are actually being used properly on this site by what they mean?

See this thread.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!

AlternativeTitles: Nakama
11th Jul '11 8:18:19 PM

Crown Description:

Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.

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