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Rewrite Due to Fetishistic Description?: Zettai Ryouiki

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Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#126: Jul 8th 2011 at 9:49:35 AM

Generally we shouldn't try to redefine an established concept. But at this point it isn't clear whether grade C is considered the trope. People like English Ivy and myself are commenting on it based on argumentations (whether it's PSOC, etc.), but even the reports on how it's treated in the fandom differed: some said people count them, some said otherwise.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#127: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:06:13 AM

Well, from my observation of the fandom I'd say that Rank C is counted as Zettai Ryouiki, but it's treated differently from Rank A and B.

Rank A and B are more likely to generate "she's so hot!" responses, while Rank C tends to generate more "Dawwwhh, she's so cute."

In other words, Rank A and B tend to generate Perverse Sexual Lust, Rank C tends to generate Cuddle Lust.

Maybe a soft split would be best?

edited 8th Jul '11 10:07:41 AM by Sackett

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#128: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:09:54 AM

B and up seems to be the trope I don't actually see many Cs in shows and the show it off with the exception of some Soccer players and Tom Boy s.

C though isn't that common and someone is looking out for them (examples and the Redirect)

I am meh on it... (Sliding a bit toward not broke don't fix though.)

edited 8th Jul '11 10:12:17 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#129: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:12:57 AM

I believe it's not enough to warrant a separate trope. I suggest just add a note that it's debatable whether C counts. But what to do with the examples?

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#130: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:15:57 AM

I tend to lean on the "if it's not broke, don't fix" side myself. So I'm not sure we really have to do anything about Rank C.

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#131: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:16:31 AM

Cut the ones that state outright that they're below-knee, and if you recognize a character that has them like that, cut that as well.

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#132: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:18:37 AM

And Raso, can you add something about the golden ratio at the sandbox?

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#133: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:23:07 AM

[up][up] I think we will need a crowner then...

[up] not really an expert on that though. We could just link the actual formula pic that's in the image links. Err where did the image link page go?

edited 8th Jul '11 10:24:52 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#134: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:28:42 AM

Well it's a redirect, so we ought to mention it.

C-c-c-crowner!

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#135: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:31:23 AM

Ok, seriously. There is one thing up for debate here. We should have one crowner option. The current one is a mess and it's just going to screw up the votes. It should be single prop keep grade C.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#136: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:35:48 AM

Crowner confusion.... Messy crowner is messy. Why not a single prop?

here is the pic that I swore was in the image links page. What the numbers mean couldn't tell ya anything more than that's how you get a grade A... not a math guy.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#137: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:36:42 AM

Good point. I made that with only three options in mind, but it expanded to the point of confusion.

Confirm to use SP crowner instead?

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#138: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:37:35 AM

Seriously, use single prop instead. That thing is just a mess.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
No9 Since: Apr, 2011
#139: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:38:59 AM

[up]@post 129 it's already been stated that most fans only considered "A" and "B" true Zettai Ryouiki so adding a note that it's debatable whether C counts would be kinda redundant.

Ultimate zettai ryouiki is 4:1:2.5 (4 length of skirt : 1 zettai ryouiki : 2.5 length of socks above knee)

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#140: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:40:20 AM

[up] It's the same as any other length.

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#141: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:41:10 AM

Crowner, take two.

[up][up][up][up][up] That image doesn't say anything about the ratio. It's a jokey diagram-thing image about the ratio, but it doesn't show anything, only scribbles and "4:1:2.5".

edited 8th Jul '11 10:45:21 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#142: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:42:43 AM

[up][up][up] That's only half true. In fact there have been sources from both sides some saying it counts, some saying it doesn't. The articles our page link to says it counts, but that the fandom seems about evenly split on the issue.

edited 8th Jul '11 10:44:44 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#143: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:51:26 AM

Which crowner do you want hooked? Please link to that crowner, and that crowner only in a post, then holler using that post as the anchor.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#144: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:53:23 AM

Crowner two. The post that I hollered on.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#145: Jul 8th 2011 at 10:58:39 AM

I think I hollered already using the "take two" post, but never mind. It's hooked now.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
DoKnowButchie from San Juan, Puerto Rico. Since: Jan, 2001
#146: Jul 8th 2011 at 2:37:44 PM

Okay, somebody correct me if they disagree, but as I understand it the issue is this:

A significant part of both the current and suggested descriptions is spent describing a specific costume —thigh-high stocking paired with short skirt or pants—and how it is deliberately used by a certain group of people (Japanese creators) to evoke certain concrete things. However, it also purports to be a page about the look itself, absent some or all of the intentional connotations that some give it.

Now, after taking a look at the page, some Tropers would like the page to be merely about the fashion, without the implications Japan and Otaku have given it; to that point, they have proposed eliminating the more Otaku-ey things about it—namely the grading system, and the connotation that it's there specifically to pander to a fetish—despite the fact that there is, undeniably, a trope (or subtrope) there, and that some consciously use it in this manner. Others see all of the Otaku-ishness as the entire point of the trope; the fact that some of the examples merely describe the costume absent implications, and that the costume itself existed decades before the Japanese attached specific connotations to it and made it ubiquitous, is not relevant.

Am I on-point so far? Does anyone disagree?

I see two solutions. Now, we can either split Zettai Ryouiki and specifically make it the trope for thigh-highs combined with mini-skirts as used in Japan, with the grades and the Tsunderes and the Moe, or we can try to rewrite the trope so that both coexist in the same page. While splitting seems like the simplest solution, my concern is that you'd be left with a costume without a trope, with examples following no clear pattern. If kept under one roof, however, I feel that the Japanese aspects would need to be de-emphasized to a degree that some would find disagreeable—after all; the standard way of describing a trope is to go from more general to more specific uses, while this trope seems structured in the opposite manner.

edited 8th Jul '11 2:38:46 PM by DoKnowButchie

Avatar art by Lorna-Ka.
No9 Since: Apr, 2011
#147: Jul 8th 2011 at 6:43:18 PM

First paragraph is more like this: the page has

  1. A trope about thigh-high stocking or boots paired with short skirt or pants. "thigh-high stockings". Very popular fashion item with girls and young women.

  2. A trope about the highlighted area of uncovered thigh between the skirt and the stockings, similar to Absolute Cleavage, this draws male attention to the thigh, appeal increases the higher up the leg the gap but decreases the wider the gap. so it has a very specific size range, fans call this Zettai Ryouiki translated as Absolute Territory for reasons too long to explain here it also gets used on certain characters like you'd expect a cape and spandex on superheros as a kind of in-joke.

Second paragraph is basically correct, but keep in mind the page is named after #2 above.

Third paragraph Cutting back too many details on #2 so it could coexist with #1 would lead to inconsistent examples. since #1 is broader than #2 and they would be difficult to separate since making one of these will generate the other.

Updated: Seems we've decided to go with the namesake #2 keeping the grades etc while re-writing description to sound less ...serious, but can't decide on if grades C and below Pass as examples, which has been an issue for years.

Unlike A & B (which most fans call true ZR), C depends on skirt length instead and can fail if the skirt covers too much thigh or only shows Knee.

edited 8th Jul '11 10:03:06 PM by No9

Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#148: Jul 8th 2011 at 8:05:22 PM

I prefer the multi option crowner, if only because there are a lot of things we could do to better separate Rank C from Rank A and B without going to the extreme of cutting it.

BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#149: Jul 8th 2011 at 9:51:40 PM

Hmmm, I was thinking that Grade C counted as an example until I started looking through the Gelbooru tag linked earlier in the thread. It looks like the folks at Gelbooru aren't tagging anything that doesn't go over the knee.

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#150: Jul 9th 2011 at 12:28:24 AM

I really think Grade C doesn't count. Needs to go above the knee or it's just long socks.

SingleProposition: ZettaiRyouikiGradeC
8th Jul '11 10:38:36 AM

Crown Description:

Does Grade C Zettai Ryouiki count as an example?

Total posts: 539
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