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Rewrite Due to Fetishistic Description?: Zettai Ryouiki

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SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#26: Jul 6th 2011 at 8:16:13 PM

Also, while sometimes thighhighs on a character are nothing more than an artistic choice, they do at times import meaning.

Aoki Ume, character designer for Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica stated in her notes on the characters that Madoka wears white thighhighs in her school uniform to denote her innocence and purity, while Mami and Homura wear dark pantyhose to indicate a more mature mindset.

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#27: Jul 6th 2011 at 8:57:46 PM

I take it that the IP thread was locked temporarily until we decide how important is the grading thing. Some say it's just inside-jokey, like the golden ratio thing. That is to say, pretending to assign rigorous assessment for fun, in an almost self-deprecating way. Some other say the grading this is the trope. This must be solved.

Also, maybe a material like [up] should be incorporated. Surely it's more valuable for us as it's an analysis on narrative techniques.


Do Know Butchie

This could stand to be eliminated. The first clause takes us back to fetish territory, and doesn't really say anything about how it's used as a trope. The second and third make me want to go [Citation Needed].

The article does include a kind of survey, although I can't really say how strongly that backs up the claim. However, we perhaps need to decide whether this information is necessary.

go-go boots

Sold. I temporarily*

removed it for the reasons stated. 1) It's barely an example, 2) The Other Wiki doesn't say what the article says it does, 3) It invites false examples.

shimaspawn

I do think that the article linked in the current version should be linked in the new one. Maybe just under something that says "Here is a more in-depth look at this trope." Or something like that.

We included those already under "further reading," but perhaps I misunderstand your point?

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#28: Jul 6th 2011 at 9:01:55 PM

[up] Ah, I missed that first time through. Sorry.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#29: Jul 6th 2011 at 11:18:28 PM

[up][up] I dont think there are set types for colors. cool calm Mizore from Rosario To Vampire is stripped. Psycho Nina Trinity from Gundam 00 is white (As well as being the Gogo boots variety.) Naru from Love Hina wears a lot of different flavors. (also manages to pull of Opera Gloves at the same time in above pic.)

The only set color is black as most classic Tsundere are black following Rin or the Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere types.

edited 6th Jul '11 11:41:56 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#30: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:26:35 AM

Are we going with Catalogue's rewrite from the first page?

@Sakurazaki Setsuna: But the color of someone's tights is a completely different trope. If it is a trope, that is...

edited 7th Jul '11 7:27:38 AM by EnglishIvy

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#31: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:36:43 AM

Colour generally falls under Colour-Coded for Your Convenience or one of it's many subtropes.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#32: Jul 7th 2011 at 9:34:18 AM

The colors are indeed Color-Coded for Your Convenience as far as I can tell. Talk of Madoka et al's stocking colors may link back here when describing what the costume piece is, but the example belongs under Color Coding.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#33: Jul 7th 2011 at 10:38:23 AM

[up]

Err...no, its not that. Granted its not this trope, its an example of how costume tropes can, in fact, be tropes for more than just appearance.

GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#34: Jul 7th 2011 at 10:40:11 AM

Have you seen how broad Color Coding is? Black vs white stockings is an example of color coding an element of one's design, just as Common Eye Colors are color coding of character's eyes, and Hair Colors are examples of color coding one's hair, all for the sake of demonstrating personality with outward appearance.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#35: Jul 7th 2011 at 10:59:29 AM

[up]

*sigh*

The characters in Madoka are color coded. However their stocking color is not part of the color coding, and if it would be considered so, then that article is completely broken, but I don't feel like looking into it.

GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#36: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:00:51 AM

. . . *sigh* Color-Coded for Your Convenience is not broken. It's a supertrope. There are a lot of different forms of color coding. Did you not pay attention when I linked the sub-tropes I was giving examples of?

If you're not willing to read an article before arguing over what it's about, I'm not sure how you hope to get anything done.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#37: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:05:12 AM

Well, I don't think it's impossible to have more than one colour-coding in a work. If it's true that black/white stockings signify something, then it's a separate colour-coding instance than the red/blue (I presume) colour-coding going on elsewhere. Madoka then has two examples of the trope.

On the other hand, if colour-coding by the high socks is prevalent, it should merit a mention in the page. ("Often used as a means to apply Color-Coded for Your Convenience...")

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#38: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:09:06 AM

But is that actually a part of the zettai ryouiki trope, as opposed to whatever trope stockings/socks fall under? It's certainly not limited to zettai ryouiki.

edited 7th Jul '11 11:09:59 AM by EnglishIvy

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#39: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:10:28 AM

[up] No, it's really not. It's a general trope for all pieces of apparel and not just stocking and this is far from the only stocking trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#40: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:11:46 AM

It's a pretty general costume trope. Costume color schemes and details are often used for this sort of thing. I don't think it really belongs in Zettai Ryouiki... which as it is, is starting to feel like people want to trope overdose the trope.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#41: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:23:17 AM

Good point. That might not count.

So we're left with the original "how much is the grading thing integral to the trope" question.

edited 7th Jul '11 11:24:00 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:24:53 AM

I've never seen anyone talk about the trope without talking about the grading. From my experience with it, it's the core of the trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#43: Jul 7th 2011 at 11:33:51 AM

Whereas in my experience, the trope started out just as costume design meant to focus the Male Gaze. The name originated from Neon Genesis Evangelion fandom, and had nothing to do with any grading systems originally. Our page on this contained no mention of grading systems for well over a year, then I check back now and suddenly it's all over the page. It just feels like a pile of creator in-jokes and Fan Speak from here.

edited 7th Jul '11 11:44:07 AM by GoggleFox

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#44: Jul 7th 2011 at 12:37:32 PM

As I said before since we don't exactly have pictures for every example on the page the grading system explains how high the stockings go up.

Also agree with shima I have never seen it not used.

Eva has been around since 95 and the term has been around for a long time, the grading has been around for at least ~5 years (which was when I first came across it)

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#45: Jul 7th 2011 at 12:41:40 PM

But why is it necessary to keep track of how high they go? Couldn't the page just say that it's above the knee, and leave it at that?

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#46: Jul 7th 2011 at 12:44:53 PM

Because it's part of the trope. The variations are part of the trope itself and especially with stuff like S they indicate running themes of costuming being associated with certain character types.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#47: Jul 7th 2011 at 12:46:09 PM

Also, just because grading exists does not mean it's necessary to focus on it. Its place in the fandom certainly deserves a mention, but narrow focus on it sends the wrong message to the viewer. Kind of like a chart that appears elsewhere on the wiki.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#48: Jul 7th 2011 at 12:47:00 PM

@shimaspawn: I'm pretty sure that the S ranking was actually a joke about Rin from Fate Stay Night, and wasn't meant to be a serious characterization trait at all.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#49: Jul 7th 2011 at 12:50:21 PM

And yet, it seems to be a running characterization theme and there are a lot of them listed on the page, joke or no. They all have those same traits.

I also like the fact that the grading system encourages people to actually describe the costumes in question some instead of just sticking up character names. We have a lot of X Just X issues with costuming tropes.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#50: Jul 7th 2011 at 2:07:15 PM

I oppose the rewrite.

Basically the complaint seems to be:

1: The current description is creepy and fetishistic

2: The current description is too long for such an unimportant subject

My answers are:

1: Duh, it's about a costume that appeals to a certain fetish. Also, it's a hellalot less creepy then several other fetish pages on this site. Heck, it's pretty much a PG fetish. Go fix the R rated ones before complaining about this one.

2: It's a costume trope that is Serious Business for many fans. Okay, you don't find it Serious Business, so don't read the trope page.

Bluntly I sense a big case of "Stop Having Fun" Guys and I see no real justification for it. If you want to tell people to stop having fun please give some actual person that is being injured, or some benefit to the change beyond just you not enjoying the fun that other people are having.

SingleProposition: ZettaiRyouikiGradeC
8th Jul '11 10:38:36 AM

Crown Description:

Does Grade C Zettai Ryouiki count as an example?

Total posts: 539
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