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Schneizel: Was he a good man?

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gingerninja666 SCH-NEIGH-ZEL from Aboard The Damocles Since: Aug, 2009
SCH-NEIGH-ZEL
#1: Jul 4th 2011 at 12:10:03 PM

In the same vain people consider LELOUCH a good man of course (In no way am I implying that Schneizel didn't do evil things). Was he irredeemably evil? Was his punishment too harsh? Did his argument that Ambition Is Evil hold ANY water at all?

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel
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#2: Jul 4th 2011 at 12:23:54 PM

They had almost the exact same plot. It's just that Lelouch's was self-sacrificing while Schneizel's was not. Wouldn't say he's completely evil but the story has Lelouch as protagonist so you can't help its portrayal.

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#3: Jul 4th 2011 at 1:04:57 PM

I don't know. Was he a Family Man?[lol]

edited 4th Jul '11 1:07:18 PM by Demongodofchaos2

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Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#4: Jul 4th 2011 at 1:24:02 PM

[up][up]That's one of the big points for Lelouch and against Schneizel in this matter. It indicates that Lelouch was, in the end 1.) Willing to be held accountable for the horrible things he did (both the necessary and unnecessary ones), and 2.) smart enough to realise that if a plan to fix the world is dependent on one person sticking around to run things, it's a flawed plan. Because what happens when that one man dies?

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gingerninja666 SCH-NEIGH-ZEL from Aboard The Damocles Since: Aug, 2009
SCH-NEIGH-ZEL
#5: Jul 4th 2011 at 1:39:19 PM

[up]

but damocles didn't really NEED one specific person in charge. As long as someone knew how to operate it and when then it doesn't matter

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel
Noimporta Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Jul 4th 2011 at 3:23:24 PM

Was he a good man?
No.

Endless arguments could be had as to whether he's better or worse than Lelouch, but he's nowhere near the realm of good.

Sporkaganza I'm glasses. Since: May, 2009
I'm glasses.
#7: Jul 4th 2011 at 3:31:01 PM

None of the characters are 100% good or 100% bad. You can argue for some being more good or more bad, but no one is just good or bad. The morality in this series is gray and grey like goddamn.

Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember them, you are not alone.
gingerninja666 SCH-NEIGH-ZEL from Aboard The Damocles Since: Aug, 2009
SCH-NEIGH-ZEL
#8: Jul 4th 2011 at 3:42:24 PM

[up]

I'd like to point you to Luciano Bradley XD

edited 4th Jul '11 3:42:46 PM by gingerninja666

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#9: Jul 4th 2011 at 7:01:15 PM

The Chinese Eunuchs were kind of short on redeeming features, too.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#10: Jul 4th 2011 at 7:09:34 PM

Didn't Luciano have an abusive childhood?

edited 4th Jul '11 7:09:49 PM by Rynnec

gingerninja666 SCH-NEIGH-ZEL from Aboard The Damocles Since: Aug, 2009
SCH-NEIGH-ZEL
#11: Jul 4th 2011 at 7:14:08 PM

He still has no REDEEMING features

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#12: Jul 4th 2011 at 7:22:45 PM

[up][up]That's hardly enough to qualify him as 'grey'...

What's precedent ever done for us?
ManwiththePlan Since: Dec, 2009
#13: Jul 4th 2011 at 8:00:37 PM

A bad childhood is only a Freudian Excuse if it justifies why the villain is evil in what said villain is doing. That's not the case with Luciano, who is so far gone into Complete Monster terriority that a bad childhood could hardly justify what he does; his actions nowadays have nothing to do with what happened to him as a child. He ENJOYS crossing the Moral Event Horizon.

Anyway, I think Schniezel was a well-intentioned villain like Lelouch but was better at hiding his flaws behind an Affably Evil facade. And much more selfish in the end. He wasn't as evil as Charles or V.V., but still one of the series' biggest bad guys.

edited 4th Jul '11 9:05:13 PM by ManwiththePlan

gingerninja666 SCH-NEIGH-ZEL from Aboard The Damocles Since: Aug, 2009
SCH-NEIGH-ZEL
#14: Jul 6th 2011 at 8:22:25 PM

disregarding ethics, and agreeing that their both Well Intentioned Extremists. In a Real Life scenario, who's plan for world peace would work out better, and last longer?

Lelouch's Plan: Conquer the world, then go around acting like a genocidal dictator ranking up there with Hitler for a few months. Then arrange your own assassination. You hope that People will posthumously blame the world's problems on you and will feel no animosity towards each other any more (or seek more peaceful resolutions if they still do).

Schneizel's plan: Create an untouchable nuculer battle station and nuke several major cities around the world, or in some way show that you have this great power, then nuke any other areas where mass violence is breaking out. You hope that by having a monopoly on violence, people won't fight each other anymore, for fear of retribution.

I personally think that Lelouch's plan doesn't have as high a cost to perform, but will only last for a few years, wheras Schneizel's cost is monstrously higher, but has the potntial to last much longer. What do YOU think?

edit: I did start a new thread for this question, but it was recommended that i move it here for efficiency's sake

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#15: Jul 6th 2011 at 8:32:47 PM

My answer.

As I already said, Lelouch can't get far without Geass. Schneizel's plan does rely on having a monopoly on a certain WMD though. And is history shows, those don't last long.

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#16: Jul 6th 2011 at 8:33:23 PM

To be fair, whether or not Lelouch's plan would work "better" is entirely beside the point - he flat out said it was a gamble. The point was that Lelouch's personal character development, and how he finally realised the real problem of the world was the way some people were taking away other's rights.

They're both imperfect solutions, Lelouch just decided that if there is no perfect answer, the one that allowed for the most free will was best.

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NieuwsgierigHandle Since: Mar, 2011
#17: Jul 6th 2011 at 11:50:20 PM

Lelouch gave people freedom and a symbol to live up to. Zero might still be alive as Suzaku has the 'Live' Geass. Schneizel didn't give people peace, he gave them fear. That in itself means he can't be good. He also didn't want peace, he wanted to rule instead of his father. Lelouch did have a selfish reason too (make a perfect world for Nunally) but even his selfish reason is 'better'. And in the end, Schneizel wanted world peace so he could rule the world and dethrone his father. Lelouch wanted to destroy his father to get world peace. It is a big difference.

gingerninja666 SCH-NEIGH-ZEL from Aboard The Damocles Since: Aug, 2009
SCH-NEIGH-ZEL
#18: Jul 7th 2011 at 1:27:29 AM

[up]

I never got that impression from Schneizel, I thought the idea was, that behind his Dissonant Serenity, he was even more cynical than Lelouch. His speeches about the evils of ambition were some of my favourite in the show and (at least to me) they made a whole lot of sense, Schneizel was also more than willing to go down with damocles, and if his Affably Evil persona were a COMPLETE act, someone as smart as him wouldn't have detrimented himself as much as he did. (He had EVERY chance to kill Lelouch but he never took it, he also withdrew from the chinese federation when the eunuch's were revealed to be assholes, when there was no one who would've called him out on it if he'd ordered Lelouch's death BEFORE leaving. He also spared Cornelia on the damocles when he could have easily killed her, and don't forget his horrified reaction to Euphemia's massacre

Their plans came down to a battle between the cynical and the idealist (Humans Are Bastards vs Rousseau Was Right) and it's dependant on where you stand on the scale. To me Schneizel's plan wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. We live under the threat of MAD now anyway, and we seem to deal with it without living in constant fear.

edited 7th Jul '11 1:28:53 AM by gingerninja666

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel
UltimatelySubjective Since: Jun, 2011
#19: Jul 7th 2011 at 2:09:51 AM

I think Lelouch wasn't as bad because he was doing everything for his sister. Although that sounds clichéd, fighting for something always lends someone at least a little nobility, even if only in other peoples' perception.

Schneizel was doing things to achieve an end, but he had nothing really motivating him and nothing to hold him back at all. He was also incredibly casual with power and manipulation.

I think that with all the facts people would be able to understand Lelouch, but would never be able to trust Schneizel. Maybe it was a facade, maybe he was just that arrogant, but it was definitely inhuman.

edited 7th Jul '11 2:11:18 AM by UltimatelySubjective

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#20: Jul 7th 2011 at 2:48:00 AM

[up]Not that I disagree that Lelouch's aims were far more noble than Schneizel's but didn't Lelouch explicitly state when confronting his parents in the World of C that Nunnally was only ever an excuse for his actions; the things he did, he chose to do solely because he wanted to do them?

Which makes him simultaneously much more selfless and more selfish, but there you go.

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gingerninja666 SCH-NEIGH-ZEL from Aboard The Damocles Since: Aug, 2009
SCH-NEIGH-ZEL
#21: Jul 7th 2011 at 2:53:41 AM

[up][up]

I agree, but that's what makes him so fascinating. IMO: Schneizel is stated by Word of God to be "Ambitionless" He has the basic goal most people strive for (peace), but is completely passive to the means he takes to get there. Since he was probably like that his entire life, I always thought Schneizel was a massive cynic deep down under his White Prince facade, since he never had any hopes or dreams. he was probably Fundamentally good and caring towards his family, but could never connect with the real world because of his mental state.

Schneizel lacked the perspective of someone like Lelouch (lulu even states as much) and has always viewed things from afar (both in terms of status and in his head). All he sees are the atrocities people like his father, Lelouch and thousands of others throughout history are inflicting on the world with their ambitions (something he can never understand) and would logically deduce that Ambition Is Evil. Technically you might not even be able to call this a wrong opinion, given that Lelouch has let his attatchments/hatred/emotions of people get in the way of his decisions, and has lead to the deaths of millions of people with seemingly no payoff.

I tried to put myself into Schneizel's mindset, doing so actually made his plan make a whole lot more sense. From his perspctive, as long as people didn't act violently, they could still live happy, productive, hopeful lives without fear of having that taken away, and if he'd planned it out aswell as I think he did, then the system would eventually pay for itself in terms of lives spared vs lives taken, he himself said that he wanted this to be the end of all wars. The morality of it is the only problem here, and we have been known to let that stand in the way of things that might be practically beneficial to us

Now I don't consider Schneizel a hero by any means, and I'd find it nigh impossible to forgive him if he killed billions of people. It's just that there a tons of possible interpretations for Schneizel, yet the majority of people who watch the show choose the simplest and evilest of them, making him out to be a Complete Monster when he can be so much more than that. Isn't the show supposed to be about Grey-and-Grey Morality, where both sides are simultaneously a little bit good AND a little bit evil?

edited 7th Jul '11 3:03:15 AM by gingerninja666

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel
UltimatelySubjective Since: Jun, 2011
#22: Jul 7th 2011 at 3:11:19 AM

[up][up] Really? I've never been to sure about that bit. That dialogue around that part got really weird and rushed, so I chose to believe the loads of evidence in embedded in his actions (what he immediately thought of when he thought he would die for the first time, the reason for most of his freak-outs, the one person he acts extremely caring towards) rather than some confusing dialogue.

Although even having an excuse would make him human which was a key part of my point.

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#23: Jul 7th 2011 at 3:38:43 AM

[up]The fact that Nunnally is clearly the person Lelouch cares most about in the world, even more than himself, doesn't at all conflict with "Nunnally was an excuse for his actions". Which I also think is fairly well supported - it's a very good explanation as to how Lelouch can use "It's for Nunnally" while going ahead with actions Lelouch is entirely aware Nunnally would never actually agree with. Which she does in fact call him on in the last few episodes.

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UltimatelySubjective Since: Jun, 2011
#24: Jul 7th 2011 at 3:47:51 AM

That's a good point.

But desiring to fulfill the a wish for peace while committing acts of violence is exactly the kind of dissonance you can expect from people. Conflicts of desires usually don't even concern people at all if the conflict doesn't come up.

So I'm just going to say "Complicated" and "Human" and leave it at that.

edited 7th Jul '11 3:50:07 AM by UltimatelySubjective

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#25: Jul 7th 2011 at 4:02:59 AM

Well, yeah. Lelouch is far more human in his wishes than Schneizel - for all the good and the bad that entails.

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