European Politics Thread

I think for the purposes of this discussion "criminal" means someone who committed a crime in the country of arrival and by their definition and whose country of origin doesn't want them back.

Then toughies: a person made functionally stateless because their home nation has blocked their return is the responsibility of the state they're currently in until and unless they can be returned with no risk of persecution or death. <shrugs>

Treat as a local criminal according to the usual standards and laws. No extra special detention, no leper islands of the stateless; normal.

Upon release, well — they're still the responsibility of the state they're in. Treat as some level of citizen, simply because to treat them as a limbo leper is against international law.

It's really not rocket science.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Dec 8th 2018 at 12:28:45 PM

A capital crime. I am not fussed about a small time theft (unless it is part of organized crime) or a traffic violation, I am fussed about people you can categorize as criminals with no visible intention to change their ways. The guy Germany is currently trying to deport to Turkey is a murderer who has zero respect for woman or the laws of Germany. People who are send back to the Maghreb states (or are supposed to get send back) are often part of criminal bands who have their hands in all kind of crimes.

Though my main point here is that every case is unique, and it is difficult to make snap judgements about what a state should or shouldn't do in principle. Outside of saying "we won't don't send people out to get killed", naturally.

I note that often 'Its only about criminal ones' gets then quietly applied to quite a broader spectrum.

The criminal ones, not discounting their existence, get used as a stalking horse to pass stuff that then gets used to go after 'the good ones' as well

Sure. On the flip side, you can't just ignore what is an actual problem just because it doesn't apply to the majority of asylum seekers.

It's always about finding the right balance. But, for the record, I think it the money Denmark intends to waste on a detention island would be better used by just propping up the economy in Africa.

I think it's more a case of trust. How much are you trusting the people enforcing the rules to this not to abuse them.

And how much you trust that the rules are enforced in the first place.

In lighter news, Jens Stoltenberg - the Prime Minister of Norway - drove a taxi incognito to learn what the people thought about politics and the situation on ground in general.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23655675

Anything new on the G20 summit?

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but that article is five years old. Stoltenberg hasn't been PM for a while, he's Secretary General of NATO.

The Norwegians currently have a bad case of The Conservatives in office.

Edited by math792d on Dec 9th 2018 at 10:49:13 AM

So recently PM Morawiecki has been taking a suspiciously pro-European take together with the entire PIS. "Poland is the beating heart of Europe. We inspire Europe", to paraphrase the man. The knowledge that this isn't just ordinary boldfaced lying - he said that Europeans can learn from our honesty, as EU authorities agree that Polish judiciary is a travesty, for one - but rather a cynical strategy for European Parliament elections makes it somewhat easier to swallow.

But then I realize that this is likely to convince the unconvinced with childish ease. We've seen this pattern before. Before the elections of 2015, PIS had put on a mask of civility - best represented by a new face, President Duda, and a suspicious lack of certain key figures of the party both in the campaign and in the promises - before they've won, put these figures where they wanted them to and things went back to PIS's normal. It's the exact same thing now.

Given that PIS's track record involves:

• Calling the EU flag "a rag"
• Calling EU itself "an imaginary union"
• Multiple accounts of rebelling against EU laws, even from the top figures of the gov
• And other things that I can't be bothered to count down

I'm largely unconvinced of this sudden 180. Whether the populous falls for it or not, I expect things to return to "normal" once the elections are over. The opposition has been getting somewhat better at keeping up with PIS, at the very least.

On a more positive note, I'm hearing that some sort of agreement favoring renewable energy sources had been signed up on the summit in Katowice, if nothing else. It's difficult to just abandon coal industry for a country with such a heavy coal usage - we might as well be the Bermuda Triangle of clean air in Europe - but with enough hope we might be able to even it out to a 50-50 deal over the years, and then continue slowly closing down the mines.

Well, it's the job of the opposition to remind people of all this. Hopefully successful.

So it seems as if the Liberal Party here in Denmark's starting to take a leaf out of their cousins abroad - recently, a group within the Copenhagen Business School wanted to get a song removed from the curriculum for dumb and kind of arbitrary reasons.

This, of course, prompted outrage from the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, the Interior Minister...

And meanwhile, they snuck a proviso into next year's finance law that's designed to deal another crippling blow to the health sector by completely up-ending the way the sector operates.

You see, right now, all the responsibility for health law and managing funds for public health goes through the administrative regions. These regions are all bodies of elected politicians who are, at least in theory, accountable public servants. And instead, the Liberal Party wants to remove the administrative regions and put all healthcare-related decisions into the hands of 'professionals.' I.e bean-counters from business schools who are utterly unaccountable to the public. And while the finance law can't disband them directly, the way it's set up makes it feel a lot like a pork barrel law designed to shore up support for a final legislative push before next year's elections.

So naturally, they just found something vaguely outrageous that they could make a big deal out of taking a Sound Moral Stance on while they're looting the welfare state to pawn off to their rich chums. Isn't capitalism great?

Edited by math792d on Dec 19th 2018 at 12:04:58 PM

Btw, looks like Italy has come to an agreement with the EU. Seems like all those who just can't wait for the Euro to fails need to wait a little bit longer.

Danish lawmakers approve funding to hold foreign criminals on tiny island

Guess the Ælcatraz is going up then.

Edited by TerminusEst on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:23:36 AM

<facepalm> You know all those surveys going on about how Denmark is one of the happiest places to live?

Prepare for a drop in the lists... Join the UK, Denmark! You already have the right weather! We're your cousins! Become miserably depressed and rife with income inequality, like us!

'Foreign criminals' is a misnomer. It's both foreign criminals and also residents who've broken Danish law by being asylum seekers whose case was rejected. They'll similarly be interned on the island.

It's also worth noting that a reasonably fit person can swim to the mainland from the island, and that the next island over has promised funding for a bus route from the island straight to Christiansborg.

I have donated money to this most worthy cause.

Regarding Article 13, the main problem is that the proposed Copyright Filters can't tell the difference between what is infringement and what is fair use.

What European voters worry about

I hope that the pro-European movements can activate enough voters to drown out the right-wing voters this time around.

The Portuguese don't care about immigration policy? Although the interest that people have in climate and youth unemployment is noticeable.

The location of Portugal ensures that they don't really get a lot refugees - or immigrants in general.

Don't think things will change much here. The anti-immigration faction has taken over the Finns Party completely, so they'll be handicapped in the national elections, but things will probably stay largely the same in the EU.

At least there's not been any signs of a shake up anywhere.

Our country has been wrecked with wildfires every summer in these last years, so naturally the top concern is that, instead of immigration, in which the only noticeable problem is the poor integration of romanis (gypsies).