European Politics Thread

Final results from Italy. Senate Chamber of Deputies

• Green= Lega (Fascists)
• Blue= Forza Italia and allies (Berlusconi)
• Yellow= Movimento 5 Stelle (shapeless blob of mutually contradicting opinions by people "above" politics)
• Red = Partito Democratico and allies (Center left and left)

Actual fascists?!

Ignoring the European influence of Schaüble is a bit hard. I stopped counting the number of European summits where the French ministers of economy (Moscovici, then Macron, then Sapin) tried to argue for less austerity and a bit more investment - both in Greece and anywhere else - only for Germany to plainly say "no".

Austerity works very well when you have a huge trade excedent like Germany does. When you don't, like everywhere else, it does not have the same miraculous effect.

And I am not even against all forms of austerity in France. The next Macron reform which will target train transportation was IMO long overdue, as the status is a complete anachronism today yet it persists mostly because the syndicates can freeze the country on demand. But when austerity leads to fewer teachers in the public sector, fewer nurses, and less money for research, then it's just not the good policy to follow.

Holy crap, the South is all Five Stars. And Milan and Turin do not look like super nice places to live in with those colors.

edited 5th Mar '18 1:39:57 PM by Julep

To paraphrase myself from earlier, their leader refers to immigrants as "clandestines" and the party includes a local candidate who opened fire on six people because they were black.

Austerity just means that you don't live beyond your means. It doesn't preclude investments, it just precludes spending money on things which won't have an investment return. To say "those poor countries just wanted to invest some money and Germany said "no"" is simplified BS. The point was always to reform the system first before throwing money into a black hole. Especially regarding Greece.

Not to mention that none of those countries would have had to discuss anything with Germany if they hadn't driven their economy off the cliff first.

Italy's political system makes the US's look competent in comparison. Are you guys really surprised at the result?

edited 5th Mar '18 2:17:06 PM by Wariolander

@Handle: no, not actual Fascists. If anything the LN are anti-statists. They're just your run-of-the-mill Eurosceptic anti-immigrant Conservatives with a dash of federalism.

I gather you don't mean federalist as in Hamiltonian Federalism.

x6 The problem here is that none of the countries ever gave Schäuble a reason for less austerity, because they always failed to fully implement it and especially failed in reforming their public sector and labour market.

Particulary France has no reason to complain, given the fact that it never really tried to get its' deficite under control.

And no, I don't see any reason why other countries could not become more like Germany, since I do not believe that Southern Europeans are fundamentally incapable of having a working tax system, bureaucracy and public sector. Much would be won if those standards would apply everywhere in Europe (mind you, I do not believe that Germany sets the high bar here, there are countries that do it better, rather Germany should be the low standard everyone should try to fullfill).

edited 5th Mar '18 2:26:25 PM by Zarastro

The fact that Southern Europe is the only region of Europe to have a war recently in the 90's (The Yugoslav Wars) and many of the countries there are still recovering from it doesn't help.

I mean, austerity is just one manifestation of the many and sundry ways in which the cancer that is 21st century capitalism is going to kill us all.

It just happens to be one that's practically serving up a casus belli for populist movements with a nice pink (or should that be blue?) bow on it.

The Austerity Argument turns, and arguments come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Argument that gave it birth comes again. In one Argument, called the third argument by some, an Argument yet to come, an argument long past, a wind rose in this thread. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Austerity Argument. But it was a beginning...

edited 5th Mar '18 2:35:02 PM by 3of4

?

Its the Wheel of Time opening line, modified to reference the fact that we had the argument over austerity politics for over a dozen times to the point that its usually just a retreat of the same argument in different words.

@Handle I have no idea what Hamiltonian Federalism is, so...

Promoting a strong centralized government with powerful institutions, as opposed to leaving a lot of autonomy to regional governments.

You should listen to Hamilton.

edited 5th Mar '18 3:02:55 PM by TheHandle

From what reading I did, they're not proponents of such Federalism, no.
And, well, Musicals in general and modern popular music in particular are less my musical cup of tea, so.

That show is special, though. Just give it a shot.

I am in general not a fan of "this or that politic created the right wing movement". Yes, populists movement have an easier time in countries which struggle for one reason or another. But just as often it's populist movements which create problems in the first place, or whatever they are fighting for boils down to complaining on a really, really high live. It often equals "we have a cut at the finger, so let's hack up the hand, that should solve the problem". In any case it is misblaming.

I see two sources for the rise of populist movement: a population which is politically illiterate and an elite which stirs the pot for their own personal gain.

There are a billion reasons for Germany to be in a unique situation right now. It's a bit patronizing to use the argument "just do like us" - for example, countries such as Greece or Spain were dictatorships thirty years after WWII, and didn't get a huge flood of international help for their economy to transition.

Sometimes it can be healthy not to care about your deficit.

Germany got less financial aid than anyone else in Europe after WWII, for obvious reasons. And I am not complaining about that, but this BS narrative that Germany was helped more than anyone else has to end. This is not what happened. It lost territory, it was split in two, it still had to pay off the reparations from WWI and it paid huge sums to the victims of the Holocaust, all while rebuilding the country under the shadow of being the designated battlefield for the cold war.

Also, it is not like anyone in German expects other countries to be exactly like Germany. The attitude of Germany boils down to: Do whatever works for you, but when it doesn't work out and you ask us for help, you better buckle down and change something instead of complaining while we try to help out.

edited 5th Mar '18 3:45:22 PM by Swanpride

That's true enough. I retract the generalisation.

That is how politicians sell it, but that is not what it means.

edited 5th Mar '18 4:39:33 PM by Wyldchyld

It would be patronizing if I blamed them for not having reached that standard yet, the problem here is that there seems to be insufficient effort to reach it. Those countries had it rough, no doubt about it, but that does not mean that they are unable to have a functioning bureaucracy, especially if they received help - which particulary happened to Greece - to build one.

Italy has for example no excuses for its' current state.

Italy? The country that has been handling pretty much on its own the entirety of the migratory crisis for several years now? If there is one country where you could expect a rise in anti-EU populism even with a spotless political class, it's here.

Especially as said migrants arrive in areas where the Mafias are extremely powerful. And I don't think austerity can solve the Mafia problem - as for politicians who try, well, they don't tend to last for some reason.

It's easier to try and solve a problem when you don't have to put your life on the line for that.

edited 5th Mar '18 5:23:28 PM by Julep

How very Byzantine.