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Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#201: Jul 7th 2011 at 4:53:12 PM

To state Rocket Dude's post in another way: You can't force a English term when it doesn't exist and a Japanese/French/Latin/other major language equivalent does. It sacrifices "clear and concise" for the sake of avoiding foreign terms like the wind.
Reiterating because it needs to be said and said and said again.

edited 7th Jul '11 4:53:29 PM by Willbyr

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#202: Jul 7th 2011 at 5:12:39 PM

Phew it had thread title change not nuked.

Big Damn Heroes was more or less what I expected it to be. Of course that is true of many of the tropes in the Wiki as well.

While I agree that it is no small task to come up with a phrase or term to replace a foreign word or phrase it is not impossible. Sometimes there are equivilent characters or ideas in English literature. I know I have seen an English Character type that is basically Kuddere (sp) I need to do some short research to find it though.

There are some terms though we can not really replace. The big trick is sorting the whole mess in a meaningful way.

Who watches the watchmen?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#203: Jul 7th 2011 at 5:18:06 PM

Can we go through and nuke all the character named tropes and classical literature references now? Those annoy me more than foreign language works.

Fight smart, not fair.
BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#204: Jul 7th 2011 at 5:24:31 PM

But aren't some classical literature references used even by...non-Young Nerds? which ones are you talking about?

edited 7th Jul '11 5:25:35 PM by BrightBlueInk

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
Cosman246 Another person from Cascadia Since: May, 2009
Another person
#205: Jul 7th 2011 at 5:27:33 PM

First, let's resolve this. I don't want to relaunch and see it recut.

If you eat a live frog in the morning, nothing worse will happen to either of you for the rest of the day.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#206: Jul 7th 2011 at 5:28:05 PM

Playing Cyrano comes to mind. Seriously, I'd rather have the Japanese titles than those.

Fight smart, not fair.
BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#207: Jul 7th 2011 at 5:33:32 PM

Oooh. Okay. I don't think Cyrano is too obscure, but I can see how if someone doesn't know the reference it'd be just as difficult to understand as kuudere.

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#208: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:14:31 PM

The only reason I even got close to Cyrano is because I am familiar with the work.

Obscure reference tropes should be changed as well.

Who watches the watchmen?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#210: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:27:32 PM

"The X" style tropes are, in general, a bad thing, but literary references? Keep 'em. If you don't know the classics, you oughta by the time we're done with you.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#211: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:30:45 PM

Nope. You should not have to be familiar with any fiction as much as possible. Like was noted we should not have to hunt down the refrences.

Who watches the watchmen?
Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#212: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:38:36 PM

I know that common perception of the Mirror Wiki is that they're a bunch of anime-hating baboons, but the truth is that they have all the Japanese trope titles there that exist here... but they are redirects only. As for "not being able to find a suitable replacement term", here's what they use:

  • Bishonen: Pretty Boy
  • Bishoujou: Pretty Girl
  • Blue Bishoujo Ghetto: Pretty Boy Gallery
  • Dandere: Shrinking Violet
  • Dojikko: Cute Clumsy Girl
  • Doujinshi: Doujinshi
  • Furo Sceene: Bathtub Scene
  • Genki Girl: Hyperactive Girl
  • Hentai: Porn
  • Hikikomori: Shut In
  • Kawaiiko: Hideously Cute Girl
  • Kichiku Megane: That Dick with the Glasses
  • Kichiku: Bastard Boyfriend
  • Kuudere: Frosty Front
  • Mega Neko: Really Big Cat
  • Megane: Guy with Glasses
  • Meganekko: Girl with Glasses
  • Meido: Japanese Maid
  • Moe: Tooth-Achingly Cute
  • Moe Anthropomorphism: Tooth-Achingly Cute Anthropomorphism
  • Nakama: Band of Brothers
  • Naked Shotaro Boy: Naked Little Boy
  • Ojou: Non-Royal Princess
  • Otaku: Hardcore Nerd
  • Seiyuu: Voice Actors
  • Shinigami: Shinigami
  • Shonen: Shonen
  • Takahashi Couple: Belligerent Sexual Tension
  • Tall, Dark, and Bishoujo: Tall, Dark, and Aloof
  • Toku: Toku
  • Tokusatsu: Toku
  • Tsundere: Hostile Love
  • Yandere: Love-Struck Psycho
  • Yangire: Sweet But Psycho
  • Yaoi: Boys Love
  • Yonkoma: Yonkoma
  • Zettai Ryouiki: Golden Thigh Ratio

As you can see from the list, when the concept is well-and-truly Japanese, they use the Japanese term.

They "rescued" the cut page, by the way. Which is interesting, given that they supposedly hate all anime.

edited 7th Jul '11 6:39:43 PM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#213: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:41:50 PM

Oh, I like "Frosty Front". That's much clearer than "Frozen Flower." I don't know if it would work for a good replacement in Pale Haired Strange Kuudere (Pale Haired Strange Frosty Front...yeah, no, that's awful, and it makes it sound like the girl's always cold but...not always in that trope's case, I think) but it's a start.

edited 7th Jul '11 6:46:01 PM by BrightBlueInk

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#214: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:43:03 PM

As do I. Much clearer.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#215: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:44:27 PM

If Kuudere is being used correctly, it still shouldn't be switched with the English title. Although that one should probably be added as a redirect.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#216: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:45:45 PM

Tue: That sounds decidedly problematic. We have the concept of the Greek Chorus (familiarity with Greek theater), the Oedipus Complex (familiarity with Oedipus Rex), the previous example of Playing Cyrano (from Cyrano De Bergerac), Star-Crossed Lovers (Romeo And Juliet — but of all these you better at least have known that already)...

This isn't a requirement to be familiar with these things beforehand. If you see these titles, hear their explanation, and then look up the original sources afterward and read them for yourself, or see them (in many cases, since those I listed above are all plays and meant to be performed), you can add something more to your list of things you know. You can find many of these things online now, in either script form or as video (well, except for quite a bit of Greek theater, but that's a historically significant element anyway).

This process is called "tangential learning," and is something we should be encouraging, not stamping out. It betters people's lives to be curious, and we make people curious by giving them a little mystery to follow. What better for a site interested in tropes of writing than to make people curious about the classics?

Worldmaker: I like that list, actually. Not sure we should take it wholesale, but it certainly proves our point that English phrases can handle these just as well.

edited 7th Jul '11 6:47:31 PM by GoggleFox

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#217: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:52:31 PM

[up]I agree with this, but at the same time when a term isn't in common usage (unlike Oedipus Complex or Star-Crossed Lovers) it's not all that different from using a Japanese term that only sees usage among anime nerds. If the problem is "titles aren't clear enough" then it should go for all titles that aren't understandable to people with Small Reference Pools, whether it's a reference to an American show, a Japanese fan term, a literary reference that hasn't entered the mainstream, etc. Otherwise it's just going to make the Japanese issue seem like a Double Standard.

edited 7th Jul '11 6:53:30 PM by BrightBlueInk

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#218: Jul 7th 2011 at 6:56:28 PM

Understandable. For instance, Playing Hamlet is... well, look at it. I was expecting something relating to the character, but instead it's about the tendency in films of the play for the age of the character to be ignored. It's kind of obtuse.

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#219: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:00:07 PM

[up][up] That's what most TRS threads right now are for. Trying to decide if an obtuse title is underperforming or being misused, and if a better one is out there. On that note, Playing Hamlet is in TRS right now for exactly that reason.

I'm fine with every single Japanese-named trope being individually put through TRS if that's what it takes to prove they're working. As long as FE doesn't just change them without consensus or any proof of significant misuse.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#220: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:00:23 PM

@World Maker: That's actually a good list, although some titles are a little awkward (like Tooth-Achingly Cute Anthropomorphism) and off (Porn). Plus, I find it amusing how they were unable to translate some of the problems.

And yeah, if we're going to burn all the Japanese references, the Greek and Shakespearean ones have to go too. They're foreign.

This is a valid trope, and it explains things enough.

edited 7th Jul '11 7:00:38 PM by chihuahua0

BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#221: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:00:28 PM

Wow. Playing Hamlet is worse than something like kuudere. At least kuudere is an actual term (even if it's only used in certain circles outside of Japan), Playing Hamlet barely has anything to do with Hamlet or anything someone would associate with that play...

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#222: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:01:36 PM

[up] I'd rather all foreign language titles rather than just Japanese. But yes, take them through TRS for a check a few at a time and the bad ones get changed. The good ones we keep.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#223: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:04:01 PM

[up] This too.

And pre-existing terms should take higher priority to clunkier made-up ones.

I'm against a whole-sale cleanup. It has to be a case-by-case basis. If the name ain't broke, don't fix it.

(And I'm not really into the name Frosty Front. It adjusts more of an Ice Queen than a Emotionless Girl/Extreme Doormat with Hidden Depths.

edited 7th Jul '11 7:04:58 PM by chihuahua0

GoggleFox rrrrrrrrr from Acadia, yo. Since: Jul, 2009
rrrrrrrrr
#224: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:04:29 PM

chihuahua up above: Um, no. The Japanese ones are foreign. The ancient Greek and Shakespearian and Rostand and etc. are part of our culture.

chihuahua right here and now: Yup. Pre-existing names for tropes are absolutely preferred, if they're widespread. It's a common result.

edited 7th Jul '11 7:05:21 PM by GoggleFox

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
Cosman246 Another person from Cascadia Since: May, 2009
Another person
#225: Jul 7th 2011 at 7:06:00 PM

The dere series are still defensible in that it's hard to convey the term in English with a concise title that is recognizable to someone (at least anime fans can recognize the "dere" term)

If you eat a live frog in the morning, nothing worse will happen to either of you for the rest of the day.

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