Phew it had thread title change not nuked.
Big Damn Heroes was more or less what I expected it to be. Of course that is true of many of the tropes in the Wiki as well.
While I agree that it is no small task to come up with a phrase or term to replace a foreign word or phrase it is not impossible. Sometimes there are equivilent characters or ideas in English literature. I know I have seen an English Character type that is basically Kuddere (sp) I need to do some short research to find it though.
There are some terms though we can not really replace. The big trick is sorting the whole mess in a meaningful way.
Who watches the watchmen?Can we go through and nuke all the character named tropes and classical literature references now? Those annoy me more than foreign language works.
Fight smart, not fair.But aren't some classical literature references used even by...non-Young Nerds? which ones are you talking about?
edited 7th Jul '11 5:25:35 PM by BrightBlueInk
Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.Playing Cyrano comes to mind. Seriously, I'd rather have the Japanese titles than those.
Fight smart, not fair.Oooh. Okay. I don't think Cyrano is too obscure, but I can see how if someone doesn't know the reference it'd be just as difficult to understand as kuudere.
Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.I know that common perception of the Mirror Wiki is that they're a bunch of anime-hating baboons, but the truth is that they have all the Japanese trope titles there that exist here... but they are redirects only. As for "not being able to find a suitable replacement term", here's what they use:
- Bishonen: Pretty Boy
- Bishoujou: Pretty Girl
- Blue Bishoujo Ghetto: Pretty Boy Gallery
- Dandere: Shrinking Violet
- Dojikko: Cute Clumsy Girl
- Doujinshi: Doujinshi
- Furo Sceene: Bathtub Scene
- Genki Girl: Hyperactive Girl
- Hentai: Porn
- Hikikomori: Shut In
- Kawaiiko: Hideously Cute Girl
- Kichiku Megane: That Dick with the Glasses
- Kichiku: Bastard Boyfriend
- Kuudere: Frosty Front
- Mega Neko: Really Big Cat
- Megane: Guy with Glasses
- Meganekko: Girl with Glasses
- Meido: Japanese Maid
- Moe: Tooth-Achingly Cute
- Moe Anthropomorphism: Tooth-Achingly Cute Anthropomorphism
- Nakama: Band of Brothers
- Naked Shotaro Boy: Naked Little Boy
- Ojou: Non-Royal Princess
- Otaku: Hardcore Nerd
- Seiyuu: Voice Actors
- Shinigami: Shinigami
- Shonen: Shonen
- Takahashi Couple: Belligerent Sexual Tension
- Tall, Dark, and Bishoujo: Tall, Dark, and Aloof
- Toku: Toku
- Tokusatsu: Toku
- Tsundere: Hostile Love
- Yandere: Love-Struck Psycho
- Yangire: Sweet But Psycho
- Yaoi: Boys Love
- Yonkoma: Yonkoma
- Zettai Ryouiki: Golden Thigh Ratio
As you can see from the list, when the concept is well-and-truly Japanese, they use the Japanese term.
They "rescued" the cut page, by the way. Which is interesting, given that they supposedly hate all anime.
edited 7th Jul '11 6:39:43 PM by Worldmaker
Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.Oh, I like "Frosty Front". That's much clearer than "Frozen Flower." I don't know if it would work for a good replacement in Pale Haired Strange Kuudere (Pale Haired Strange Frosty Front...yeah, no, that's awful, and it makes it sound like the girl's always cold but...not always in that trope's case, I think) but it's a start.
edited 7th Jul '11 6:46:01 PM by BrightBlueInk
Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.If Kuudere is being used correctly, it still shouldn't be switched with the English title. Although that one should probably be added as a redirect.
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.Tue: That sounds decidedly problematic. We have the concept of the Greek Chorus (familiarity with Greek theater), the Oedipus Complex (familiarity with Oedipus Rex), the previous example of Playing Cyrano (from Cyrano De Bergerac), Star-Crossed Lovers (Romeo And Juliet — but of all these you better at least have known that already)...
This isn't a requirement to be familiar with these things beforehand. If you see these titles, hear their explanation, and then look up the original sources afterward and read them for yourself, or see them (in many cases, since those I listed above are all plays and meant to be performed), you can add something more to your list of things you know. You can find many of these things online now, in either script form or as video (well, except for quite a bit of Greek theater, but that's a historically significant element anyway).
This process is called "tangential learning," and is something we should be encouraging, not stamping out. It betters people's lives to be curious, and we make people curious by giving them a little mystery to follow. What better for a site interested in tropes of writing than to make people curious about the classics?
Worldmaker: I like that list, actually. Not sure we should take it wholesale, but it certainly proves our point that English phrases can handle these just as well.
edited 7th Jul '11 6:47:31 PM by GoggleFox
Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.
I agree with this, but at the same time when a term isn't in common usage (unlike Oedipus Complex or Star-Crossed Lovers) it's not all that different from using a Japanese term that only sees usage among anime nerds. If the problem is "titles aren't clear enough" then it should go for all titles that aren't understandable to people with Small Reference Pools, whether it's a reference to an American show, a Japanese fan term, a literary reference that hasn't entered the mainstream, etc. Otherwise it's just going to make the Japanese issue seem like a Double Standard.
edited 7th Jul '11 6:53:30 PM by BrightBlueInk
Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.Understandable. For instance, Playing Hamlet is... well, look at it. I was expecting something relating to the character, but instead it's about the tendency in films of the play for the age of the character to be ignored. It's kind of obtuse.
Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.![]()
That's what most TRS threads right now are for. Trying to decide if an obtuse title is underperforming or being misused, and if a better one is out there. On that note, Playing Hamlet is in TRS right now for exactly that reason.
I'm fine with every single Japanese-named trope being individually put through TRS if that's what it takes to prove they're working. As long as FE doesn't just change them without consensus or any proof of significant misuse.
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.@World Maker: That's actually a good list, although some titles are a little awkward (like Tooth-Achingly Cute Anthropomorphism) and off (Porn). Plus, I find it amusing how they were unable to translate some of the problems.
And yeah, if we're going to burn all the Japanese references, the Greek and Shakespearean ones have to go too. They're foreign.
This
is a valid trope, and it explains things enough.
edited 7th Jul '11 7:00:38 PM by chihuahua0
Wow. Playing Hamlet is worse than something like kuudere. At least kuudere is an actual term (even if it's only used in certain circles outside of Japan), Playing Hamlet barely has anything to do with Hamlet or anything someone would associate with that play...
Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
This too.
And pre-existing terms should take higher priority to clunkier made-up ones.
I'm against a whole-sale cleanup. It has to be a case-by-case basis. If the name ain't broke, don't fix it.
(And I'm not really into the name Frosty Front. It adjusts more of an Ice Queen than a Emotionless Girl/Extreme Doormat with Hidden Depths.
edited 7th Jul '11 7:04:58 PM by chihuahua0
chihuahua up above: Um, no. The Japanese ones are foreign. The ancient Greek and Shakespearian and Rostand and etc. are part of our culture.
chihuahua right here and now: Yup. Pre-existing names for tropes are absolutely preferred, if they're widespread. It's a common result.
edited 7th Jul '11 7:05:21 PM by GoggleFox
Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.

edited 7th Jul '11 4:53:29 PM by Willbyr