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SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#1301: Jul 15th 2011 at 11:25:30 AM

Eddie, we aren't going to get anywhere if you insist on calling any and all Japanese terms "Fanspeak".

KrisMahai Hm? Since: Jan, 2013
Hm?
#1302: Jul 15th 2011 at 11:25:45 AM

Extremely ninja'd, so humor me here.

I agree with Japanese culture-related tropes being named in Japanese. If the trope is portrayed noticeably differently in Japanese works, then I see the reasoning in splitting the Japanese portrayal off. On the other hand, there are tropes named in Japanese that I feel are portrayed almost the same way in Western works, and I don't agree that those should be split. Unless I've misunderstood the proposal, in which case this post is irrelevant.

Somewhat unrelated, but this movement to split off Japanese tropes reminded me of the one time we tried to rename Yandere, and the eventual agreed solution that the description would be uneditable, and the trope title would display depending on the Wiki Word used to get there (English title or Japanese title), and that the examples would be editable. Anyone remember that, or is it just me?

edited 15th Jul '11 11:26:29 AM by KrisMahai

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
RocketDude Since: May, 2009
#1303: Jul 15th 2011 at 11:50:09 AM

It's worth noting that SA has a reputation for disliking Anime. I think that's why we try not to listen to them.

edited 15th Jul '11 11:52:25 AM by RocketDude

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#1304: Jul 15th 2011 at 11:52:54 AM

ADTRW might want a word with you about that...

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1305: Jul 15th 2011 at 11:54:43 AM

[up][up][up] That's correct. I don't know about Yandere, though. That was before I hung out in TRS.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1306: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:00:30 PM

^^I remember that. Didn't pan out. This idea is different, though. The article for the Japanese link would go to a different article.

I am contending that tropes that have a Japanese name but the trope is in fact universal do not need Japanese names. I realize there is a contingent that feels that is an attack on their fandom. It isn't. Insistence on the Japanese is an attack on everybody else's fandom.

edited 15th Jul '11 12:01:06 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1307: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:04:36 PM

Hm, onryo is a redirect. Interesting.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1308: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:08:14 PM

Eddie, this isn't about the fandom. Anime made up a term for a trope that had been in existence for thousands of years. They made up the term first, so that's what we use. And as the other thread has proven, its hard to get a decent English equivalent anyway.

If you want to bring the other ones into TRS too—Kuudere, Yandere, and Yangire spring to mind—and find better names for them, go right ahead. But you have yet to convince anyone that there is anything wrong with using the pre-existing term just because the Japanese are the ones who came up with it.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1309: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:12:54 PM

I'm all for leaving them there, with the reason currently pressing most against my mind being 'as a linguistic experiment'. Currently, none of them are fully loanworded*

, so what happens if we leave those few tropes there and wait and see?

Admittedly, it's probably not a very sensible thing. Eh, For Science!

edited 15th Jul '11 12:13:06 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#1310: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:19:58 PM

Eddie, have you looked into those term and checked whenever they are indrusty standards or not?

If fandom terms are the problem, we need to get rid of whole Manga/Comic and Anime/Animation divition. Because they are same thing, it's just that fandoms use these terms to divide them for their own sake.

So we would have japanese and western animation in one huge pile and same with comics and manga. Also, there is very clear strong objection to this idea not because fandom stuff, but because it violates principles which upon wiki has worked so far.

edited 15th Jul '11 12:23:46 PM by Mandemo

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1311: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:37:10 PM

Well, if we are going to go into the semantics (you know, the study of meaning) and etymology, "loanworded" is actually correct, if irregular.

Strictly speaking, right now, we're dealing with an intermediate stage loanword, in that the word has not yet been fully absorbed into the English language (which applies for pretty much every Japanese-named trope here).

(Note that a specific loanword is such when the foreign rendering of said word is changed in some way to accomodate the language into which it is imported. By default, since English doesn't use kana and has different rules on certain vowel constructs, all Japanese words brought into English qualify.)

Moreover, this isn't a linguistics experiment. This is actually an in-the-trenches version of the constant evolution of language, as churned over and debated by linguists. It'll never really end, either - it could be that in six months, some of the terms in question will get added to English, and maybe it'll fall out of usage for a different word three years beyond that, and things may have to be overhauled in the meantime.

Language evolves, the way it evolves can be rough for those focusing on how it's being used (as this wiki is incresingly prone to), and it ultimately requires some flexibility. So let's shoot for flexibility in how we act, aside from anything else decided.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1312: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:49:57 PM

I'm not buying the argument that Japan came up with the first name for any universal tropes. They have named some unique to their culture.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1313: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:51:50 PM

You have to back that up. The Tsundere TRS hasn't come up with any pre-existing English terms, or any decent English phrases for the trope regardless.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1314: Jul 15th 2011 at 12:52:44 PM

[up][up] As much as it may seem it, people don't compulsively name everything. Sometimes descriptions just get used. Isn't the entire point of this place to work out what simply has a description, record it, and name it? It's not impossible that something wasn't given a name and someone else got around to it first.

edited 15th Jul '11 12:53:03 PM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#1315: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:03:12 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Anime and western animation are the same thing, as are comic and manga. Except, they are not. In essence, they might be the same but, in fact, they aren't. Works from a single culture tend to share more tropes then works from different cultures. IT is not like this tropes are necessarily, "country-only", but that they are more common in one country then in another. Now, this means that 'American comics' are not the same as 'French comics' either. But there is no separation from French comics because they are (unfortunately) much rarer in English speaking countries then Japanese comics.

For more practical reasons, anime/manga fans are not the same demographic as comic books fans nor weastern animation fans. People who are looking for examples of anime/manga, are not interested in the examples of comic books, and vice-versa. The division is for their benefit. In fact, this is better for the comic book fans, as anime/manga example list tend to tower over comic books list (sadly, comic books Needs More Love in this wiki). Having them mixed you scare comic books fan away, as they wouldn't find their works easily.

Also, anime and manga tend to share much more tropes then comic books and their adaptations for many reasons. Separating between 'animation' and 'paper' would invite repeated examples.

Furthermore, I am not familiar in how it works on US, but the publishers over her do make a division between comic books and manga. They don't mix their 'American comic book lines' with their 'mangas line'. So, no, 'anime/manga' are not fanspeak terms. They are the official terms for 'animation and comic book in Japanese style'.

edited 15th Jul '11 1:03:32 PM by Heatth

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1316: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:06:52 PM

Considering how loanword-dependant the English language is, though, even for old concepts (for example - "loanword" is a loanword from Modern German, despite the process existing for millennia), I have to say that English, as a language, is remarkably lazy about creating terms. There's a reason that someone once said "English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

In general, it's remarkable just how long things will go without a formal name (such as the porcelain receptacle in which humans excrete waste... "toilet" is merely an allusion to washing up, which one is supposed to do after using said device). And since it's been de rigueur in English for so long, having it pointed out will result in English speakers first looking to loot some other language to see if they thought of a word for it.

edited 15th Jul '11 1:08:24 PM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#1317: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:17:48 PM

I'm not buying the argument that Japan came up with the first name for any universal tropes. They have named some unique to their culture.

Ok, so demonstrate the English word for Tsundere.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1318: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:18:50 PM

"Hot and Cold". It doesn't have to be a one-to-one translation. I recognized the character type long before I knew the Japanese name for it.

edited 15th Jul '11 1:19:20 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1319: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:19:51 PM

Hot and Cold means many, many things, some of which actually have to do with this trope. Most don't.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1320: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:20:49 PM

And yet that is how I would describe a character with those attributes. Anyway, we already have a Tsundere rename thread so this is now offtopic.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1321: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:24:16 PM

It's not a rename thread, unless that's been changed since I last looked and there's been a vote on it... which wouldn't have had time to conclude, anyway. >_>

Current topic here: yes, it is possible that something avoid naming until eight years ago.

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#1322: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:25:45 PM

[up][up][up][up]

"Recognizing the character type" is not the same thing as "Having a word for it"

No one is claiming that the Japanese invented the tsundere character type, just that they were the first to give it an actual name.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1323: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:27:23 PM

And that fact can certainly inform the naming of the trope, but it doesn't have to, especially if we succeed in coming up with a plain English title.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1324: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:29:48 PM

They named the trope. That's it. Just like the Greeks named Deus ex Machina and the Germans named schaden—I can't spell that. That's how it works.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#1325: Jul 15th 2011 at 1:32:49 PM

The Germans named Schadenfreude, I think you mean. They also invented "loanword," Earworm, My Little Panzer (well, the last part), and a few others lying around the site.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

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