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FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1277: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:13:47 AM

That's a fallacy. And again, I don't give a hoot about them one way or the other. The reason for the change is my judgment call that it needs doing.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:15:30 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1278: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:15:32 AM

My thinking or yours? That if we're going to ignore people for hate, we don't listen to the hate, or that we listen to it when it agrees with our own opinions?

So you're taking action based on a perceived problem with no evidence?

edited 15th Jul '11 10:16:18 AM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1279: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:16:15 AM

Drop the haters thread. It doesn't matter.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1280: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:16:58 AM

I agree labeling a particular source as inherently good or bad is not the best idea.

However, I'm not sure taking the opinion of people who don't regularly use the site over people who do regularly use the site is a good idea. The latter are more likely to be more knowledgeable about how things work, after all.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:17:57 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#1281: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:19:53 AM

Your argument is that otherwise-interested readers and potential editors are being driven away by certain titles. For evidence of this, you cite groups who are known to hate us for multiple, spurious reasons.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1282: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:22:42 AM

Didn't he also cite comments on our Youtube videos?

My undestanding of the proposal is that the Japanese-industry specific articles will keep their current names, just as long as they remain limited to discussion of Japanese media.
So where does that leave Yuri Genre? "Yuri" is the fanspeak, "Girls' Love" is the official industry term (Fast Eddie had originally suggested renaming to Girls Love Genre), and it's explicitly in Engrish, so I have high doubts that a self-respecting native English-speaker would use such a silly-sounding phrase to refer to plain lesbian romance and not the Japanese-only genre.

And personally speaking, ever since I got involved in the Girls' Love debate, I have had absolutely no idea why we should include non-Japanese works (excluding Animesque ones for obvious reasons) in the Girls' Love examples list, because it's explicitly a Japanese genre.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:23:53 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#1283: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:23:21 AM

There are many goons who were, at one point, visitors/editors here, and left out of disgust. Their opinions do matter.

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1284: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:24:56 AM

I'm asserting that the texts are confusing because they have a bunch of terms requiring study of an unrelated medium in order to understand the text. I mentioned that I've seen complaints elsewhere, as well, in passing. Those complaints are unimportant. Mine is right here, not on another site.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1285: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:26:21 AM

Okay, by texts do you mean the descriptions? I can get behind that problem. Tsundere was a huge Wall of Text until yesterday, and even now it isn't exactly small.

That doesn't mean that there is anything at all wrong with the title.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#1286: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:33:59 AM

@Marq: The Yuri Genre thing happened before this proposal was brought forth.

Regardless, let's hold off on specifics of individual articles for now so that we can try to iron out what the proposal itself would need to work.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1287: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:36:29 AM

The texts only start to be a problem when trope descriptions contain lots of tropes or people start writing in tropes for whatever reason. When it does, things start to be difficult to comprehend regardless of language...

Here's an example from something I wrote... well, for the sake of writing something in tropes.

Cleaned it up to remove the bracketed stuff. This is with everything as a list. Imagine what it's like strung together in normal sentences.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:37:56 AM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1288: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:38:18 AM

The text of another description or non-anime/manga example containing something like 'tsundere' is where the problem lays. Dropping it in like plain language outside of an otaku context is not making clear text for the non-otaku.

^^Right. Now make half of those in Japanese.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:39:13 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1289: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:41:15 AM

Then it seems the ideal solution would be cleaning up shoehorned and unnecessary Tsundere wicks before considering a rename. Since either way we'd probably want to clean those up, let's do that first and then see how much of an issue there is.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:41:38 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1290: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:41:32 AM

[up]That would require one of the largest Special Efforts projects in the SE subforum's comparatively short history.

@Meeble: Right. As long as we are allowed to make threads about applying Fast Eddie's new policy on those specific topics eventually, I have no objections.

Speaking of Eddie's new policy... This post of his from several pages back:

What to do about it. I see three main techniques.

  1. Get more people thinking in terms of naming a trope, rather than giving an article a title.
  2. Focus on there being at least an one indication in the name, in plain English, regarding what the trope is about.
  3. Stick to clear, concise and witty.

These will make the names more 'mnemonic'.

The 1st point I agree with whole-heartedly.

The 2nd point, however, needs some clarification on how much non-English is allowed (especially if the trope is a subtrope of a non-English-named one like Kuudere, or is a character type that is centered on said non-English-named trope), and how to balance it, to avoid overly long names, convoluted/clunky ones, etc.

The 3rd point is.... well, theoretically sound, but also needs clarification on what counts as "clear", "concise", and "witty" for our purposes.

This has to be addressed at some point if we are to implement them.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:47:54 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1291: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:42:31 AM

[up][up][up]And dropping Butterfly of Doom in the middle of an article is exactly as confusing if you've never heard the term before. Click the link, figure out what it means, and suddenly everything makes sense.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:43:13 AM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1292: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:44:30 AM

I can only think of a Japanese name for one trope in everything I've written for her and her split personality, which is Genki Girl. That the other foreign-named trope is Qipao suggests that there's really not that many of them... >_>

Oh, and I could possibly turn Cute Little Fangs into yaeba but that's not even a redirect.

Thing is, that's an incredibly confusing way to be writing anyway, which I just did for the fun of it. That most of the above are appearance tropes, which are the least confusingly named things on the site, makes things... odd.

Going to condense the personality into a list of tropes without most of the random words thrown around it.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:46:27 AM by RainyDaze

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#1293: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:46:35 AM

We're talking about adding a tool. It isn't just "rename, redirect, or cut" anymore. I guess the new thing could be called 'segregate.'

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
revolution11 from A State of Confusion Since: Feb, 2011
#1294: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:46:42 AM

Looking at Reddit, most of the comments are either positive or warn others not to visit the site because TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life.

Think Of The Ewoks.....
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1295: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:50:10 AM

[up][up] And again, why do we need to segregate them? If there is a difference between how they're viewed in different cultures, then they should be split into two different tropes. If there isn't a difference, then we only need the one trope.

Now, as I understand it, your segregate idea is to either add a redirect to Tsundere that will be used in non-Japanese context, or turn Tsundere into a fanspeak stub. I just don't see why either of those is necessary.

If your plan is something different, please explain it in full detail. Honestly, maybe I'm just missing something.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1296: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:51:13 AM

So...what we're looking at here isn't really a problem with trope names themselves, but instead a tendency for our editors to use trope names as shorthand to avoid writing out descriptive text? That is a serious problem, but as I said, renames aren't the best solution.

It's a good backup if the best solution fails, but we have to try the better alternatives before deciding that.

Edit: I don't think a new tool is the best solution either. At least not until we have more information on the wicks.

edited 15th Jul '11 10:54:20 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
RainyDaze Eheheh... from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Eheheh...
#1297: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:54:20 AM

[up]That's the only way it could ever be a major problem. Still not seeing much of a problem. There's, what, five or so Japanese-named tropes that you're likely to see regularly around western media?

Now collecting White-Haired Pretty Girls.
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#1298: Jul 15th 2011 at 10:55:39 AM

Eddie, back in when it was discussed whenever Troper Tales should be cut or not, people brought up SA and Youtube comments. You attitude back then was "Fuck them, they are just haters". Now suddenly, their opinions are what we are supposed to base this decision on.

What.

TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#1299: Jul 15th 2011 at 11:11:29 AM

Am I the only one who feels like its inappropriate to demand answers from the God King admin?

Please.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1300: Jul 15th 2011 at 11:13:38 AM

Yes. This is a wiki, a community site that is collectively edited. We deserve answers to why the admin wants to make drastic changes.

And the current open question is "WHAT is the change?", which is an even more justified question.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.

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